I can prove God exists

[numinus]

There is nothing closed about the solar system thermodynamically is there? If one looks at the massive amounts of energy contained in the quantum foam and that foam permeates the whole Universe (as far as we know) how can any system be considered closed or "somewhat closed"?

Are you talking about this?

"Quantum foam, also referred to as spacetime foam, is a concept in quantum mechanics, devised by John Wheeler in 1955. The foam is a qualitative description of the turbulence that the phenomenon creates at extremely small distances of the order of the Planck length. At such small scales of time and space the uncertainty principle allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws."

Are you pretending this has anything to do with thermodynamic systems?

If you are talking about the background radiation, or the energy density of vacuum, the temperature change attributable to it is NEGLIGIBLE compared to the heat generated by the sun.

So yes, one can very well consider the solar system as a closed thermodynamic system.

 

[numinus]

What are y'all even talking about anymore? What does this have to do with God? Way too intellectual for me.

Its actually quite simple. If you can accept scientific models that allow for the creation and annihilation of mass and energy, whether in the quantum level or cosmological level, then you are implicitly accepting a process of creation.

Is that simple enough for you?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Are you talking about this?

"Quantum foam, also referred to as spacetime foam, is a concept in quantum mechanics, devised by John Wheeler in 1955. The foam is a qualitative description of the turbulence that the phenomenon creates at extremely small distances of the order of the Planck length. At such small scales of time and space the uncertainty principle allows particles and energy to briefly come into existence, and then annihilate, without violating conservation laws."

Are you pretending this has anything to do with thermodynamic systems?

So yes, one can very well consider the solar system as a closed thermodynamic system.

Yes, zero point energy, like the machine that Tom Beardon got the patent for, which allows large quantities of energy to be extracted from the quantum foam (for want of a better name). There are a number of over-unity devices that have been produced that seem to violate some of the commonly held laws of physics. Someone once explained a very simple experiment to demonstrate how power can extracted from this quantum level: take a simple bar magnet and place a capacitor crosswise on top of it, if you connect a very sensitive electrical meter to the the capacitor you will discover a small electrical flow. Where does it come from? There is no energy going into the system and as long as the unit remains in place it will produce electrical energy. Magnets do work, where does there energy come from?

Below is a reference site with an abundance of information:
http://www.cheniere.org/mission.html

 

[numinus]

Yes, zero point energy, like the machine that Tom Beardon got the patent for, which allows large quantities of energy to be extracted from the quantum foam (for want of a better name). There are a number of over-unity devices that have been produced that seem to violate some of the commonly held laws of physics.

Nothing to do with thermodynamics because creation and annihilation of matter and energy occurs within the limits of quantum uncertainty.

But yes, that is what I'm talking about. Within the infinitessimal scale of quanta, the deterministic laws of science simply break down. And as you go progressively smaller, the uncertainty increases. To my mind, there is simply nothing that could defy the operation of immutable natural laws EXCEPT the manifestation of WILL. And such a manifestation exists beyond the limits of the very small to beyond the limits of the very large, and everything else in between.

Someone once explained a very simple experiment to demonstrate how power can extracted from this quantum level: take a simple bar magnet and place a capacitor crosswise on top of it, if you connect a very sensitive electrical meter to the the capacitor you will discover a small electrical flow. Where does it come from? There is no energy going into the system and as long as the unit remains in place it will produce electrical energy. Magnets do work, where does there energy come from?

Below is a reference site with an abundance of information:
http://www.cheniere.org/mission.html

Sorry, but this is related to maxwells electromagnetic wave equation. A time-varying magnetic field would produce electric field and force - and vice versa. This is the basis of alternators, maglev trains, etc. In such cases, energy is conserved.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Nothing to do with thermodynamics because creation and annihilation of matter and energy occurs within the limits of quantum uncertainty.

But yes, that is what I'm talking about. Within the infinitessimal scale of quanta, the deterministic laws of science simply break down. And as you go progressively smaller, the uncertainty increases. To my mind, there is simply nothing that could defy the operation of immutable natural laws EXCEPT the manifestation of WILL. And such a manifestation exists beyond the limits of the very small to beyond the limits of the very large, and everything else in between.

Could you demonstrate the validity of this statement, please.

Sorry, but this is related to maxwells electromagnetic wave equation. A time-varying magnetic field would produce electric field and force - and vice versa. This is the basis of alternators, maglev trains, etc. In such cases, energy is conserved.

You didn't read the site. If one can draw enough energy from this "foam" to heat your house, then it is having a direct effect on the energy balance of the planet. According to the articles I have read, the amount of energy available from this source is virtually unlimited--that means that this is not a closed system on the macroscopic level as you are maintaining, doesn't it?

 

[numinus]

Could you demonstrate the validity of this statement, please.

Anything that does not behave in a deterministic manner is a manifestation of will - from the absolute randomness found in sub-atomic particles to the absolute randomness inherent in a singularity. Look at your own free will if you are still not convinced.

You didn't read the site. If one can draw enough energy from this "foam" to heat your house, then it is having a direct effect on the energy balance of the planet. According to the articles I have read, the amount of energy available from this source is virtually unlimited--that means that this is not a closed system on the macroscopic level as you are maintaining, doesn't it?

What is the temperature change due to this 'foam' in the entire solar system? Compare that with the temperature change due to the sun's radiation, and you would see what I mean.

As for electromagnetism, maxwell's equations require a time-varying electrical or magnetic field to produce force. To vary electrical or magnetic field requires energy - hence there is conservation.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Anything that does not behave in a deterministic manner is a manifestation of will - from the absolute randomness found in sub-atomic particles to the absolute randomness inherent in a singularity. Look at your own free will if you are still not convinced.

One of the difficulties I have with you is that you post these statements with little definition and no proof. Your first sentence is perfect example of this. Are we just supposed to accept your word because you think you have some kind of intellectual superiority? The whole issue randomness is still fairly murky, chaos studies have found patterns in things previously thought to be random. The jury is still out on what is really random and what has patterns that we have not yet discovered.

What is the temperature change due to this 'foam' in the entire solar system? Compare that with the temperature change due to the sun's radiation, and you would see what I mean.

How much does the oil in your storage barrel increase the temperature in your house before you burn it? It's potential heat, in much the same way that the power in the quantum foam is potential until we find a way to metaphorically "burn" it to produce actual heat. The potential energy in the foam is far greater than the output of the Sun.

As for electromagnetism, maxwell's equations require a time-varying electrical or magnetic field to produce force. To vary electrical or magnetic field requires energy - hence there is conservation.

You didn't read the site.

 

[numinus]

One of the difficulties I have with you is that you post these statements with little definition and no proof. Your first sentence is perfect example of this. Are we just supposed to accept your word because you think you have some kind of intellectual superiority? The whole issue randomness is still fairly murky, chaos studies have found patterns in things previously thought to be random. The jury is still out on what is really random and what has patterns that we have not yet discovered.

I'm sorry but I'm using the words here in the way it is supposed to be used in an academic setting.

A deterministic phenomenon is something that is governed EXCLUSIVELY by natural or scientific laws, no? It couldn't behave otherwise. What all the discussion in physics has proven is that this couldn't possibly be the case in whatever field of the natural sciences.

Even in what we consider as random occurences - they still follow some statistical or mathematical law that makes it predictable to a certain extent. But within a certain domain where all external factors are equal, all phenomena approaches absolute randomness.

Tell me, what are you inclined to call this absolute randomness, where ALL deterministic conceptions simply do not exist? Is that not the exact definition of FREE WILL.

How much does the oil in your storage barrel increase the temperature in your house before you burn it? It's potential heat, in much the same way that the power in the quantum foam is potential until we find a way to metaphorically "burn" it to produce actual heat. The potential energy in the foam is far greater than the output of the Sun.

I'm sorry but this simply is not the way to view thermodynamic models. Thermodynamics deals with heat energy and how it translates to a temperature change in the system. We know from einstein that mass can be theoritically converted to energy and vice versa. However, until that energy is released, it has NO WAY of entering into the equations of thermodynamics.

You didn't read the site.

The electromagnetic wave equation was a response to your post. There is nothing in the article to suggest a thermodynamic model.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I'm sorry but I'm using the words here in the way it is supposed to be used in an academic setting.

A deterministic phenomenon is something that is governed EXCLUSIVELY by natural or scientific laws, no? It couldn't behave otherwise. What all the discussion in physics has proven is that this couldn't possibly be the case in whatever field of the natural sciences.

Even in what we consider as random occurences - they still follow some statistical or mathematical law that makes it predictable to a certain extent. But within a certain domain where all external factors are equal, all phenomena approaches absolute randomness.

Tell me, what are you inclined to call this absolute randomness, where ALL deterministic conceptions simply do not exist? Is that not the exact definition of FREE WILL.

Well, that chaos isn't what I would call free will, but you have your own very singular set of definitions. My free will is a product of my life experience, knowledge, physical make-up, and my consciousness--none of which are absolutely random.

I'm sorry but this simply is not the way to view thermodynamic models. Thermodynamics deals with heat energy and how it translates to a temperature change in the system. We know from einstein that mass can be theoritically converted to energy and vice versa. However, until that energy is released, it has NO WAY of entering into the equations of thermodynamics.

Perfect! Until it is released by a zero point energy machine like the one that Tom Bearden and his associates got a patent for from the US Patent Office. Part of the problem is that our view of thermodynamics is incorrect or incomplete--as evidenced by a machine which produces electric power endlessly with no fuel or moving parts.

The electromagnetic wave equation was a response to your post. There is nothing in the article to suggest a thermodynamic model.

You didn't read the site.

 

[numinus]

Well, that chaos isn't what I would call free will, but you have your own very singular set of definitions.

And what exactly does the chaos principle say, hmmm?

That an infinitessimal difference in initial conditions of two systems would increase exponentially over time, no? And so, an uncertainty in say, quantum phenomenon may very well manifest in a macroscopic level.

My free will is a product of my life experience, knowledge, physical make-up, and my consciousness--none of which are absolutely random.

These are deterministic factors. If one were to chart the life of an individual meticulously, in say, a laboratory setting, does that make EACH AND EVERY decision of this individual henceforth utterly predictable, hmmm?

Your mechanistic view of reality simply won't fly.

Perfect! Until it is released by a zero point energy machine like the one that Tom Bearden and his associates got a patent for from the US Patent Office. Part of the problem is that our view of thermodynamics is incorrect or incomplete--as evidenced by a machine which produces electric power endlessly with no fuel or moving parts.

You didn't read the site.

Pardon me but such a thing constitutes a blatant violation of the conservation of mass and energy. I have read your site and it suggests no such thing.

You want unlimited amounts of energy? E=mc^2 is it. Anything you can get your hands on is convertible to energy. Your only problem is accelerating it up to the speed of light.

 

[Miltiades]

Examples of patterns are stalgamites, snowflakes, crystals and tornadoes. The formation of patterns is part of the study of Chaos. The formula for a snowflake is "Water+cold air+gravity+wind+time". Patterns are not information. No information is programmed into a pattern and no information can be decoded from a pattern.
No intelligence is required to form patterns. Only naturally occurring events.
Designs require intelligence. Designs are examples of information.
Music is an example of a design. Notes are represented symbolically on paper. The sounds generated depend on the placement of these symbols on the staff, the shape of the symbol and the order. Music also exists in physical form when the air vibrates in a musical composition.
Windows is a design. It is a binary code in which "on" and "off" signals are arranged in sequences to send coded electric signals to various components of a computer. The component decodes the sequence of ons and offs and takes action based on the coded instructions. Windows XP is estimated to contain in excess of 30 million lines of code. This means that componnents must be capable of decoding the same 30+ million lines.
Language is a design. Language requires symbols that have meaning. Meaning is determined by the specific choice of symbols, the sequence and a standard set of rules to decode the meaning. Languages are a design that requires intelligence.
Designs require encoding and decoding to determine the meaning of the coding.The DNA molecule is an example of information. Humans have 3 billion base pairs on each DNA molecule. One DNA molecule is a blueprint for an entire living organism; The body, the organs, the enzymes and hormones, the nervous system, the brain. Everything we are is encoded in each DNA molecule in our body.
I am 5'10" tall with brown hair, brown eyes and light skin. I have an astigmatism in my left eye and a deep voice. I have a shallow foot arch and and am right handed. All this is due to the information encoded into my DNA. The DNA I received from my parents and based on the DNA they received from my grandparents.
DNA is an encoding and decoding system. DNA is a language. DNA can be compared with computer programming. DNA is a code.
And DNA cannot have occurred naturally, without intelligent input.
Give me one example, just one, of a code or language that arose naturally, without some intelligent input. Give me just one example of information that arose solely from naturally occurring events. Give me reasonable proof, with your argument and with sources, that clearly establish that your code or language arose spontaneously from natural forces, without intelligent input. Just one example is all it will take and I will retract my initial statement.

None of this proves any existence of God, and it DOESNT take intelegence to see that.
Are you saying Bill Gates is God?
All of that propeganda occured naturally, and no, not everything needs intelegence to be done-take your post for example.
Why don't YOU give reasonable proof GOD had ANYTHING to do with DNA, music, language, etc, etc. You can't, it's impossible, even the Bible says so. Either you're athiest or non-christian, havnt read the Bible, you forgot about that little blip of info, or your a heretic of the Christian church. Ignorance destroys wisdom.

Oh, and by the way, I'm not even athiest. I DO believe in God, but I disagree with just about everything in your post

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

And what exactly does the chaos principle say, hmmm? That an infinitessimal difference in initial conditions of two systems would increase exponentially over time, no? And so, an uncertainty in say, quantum phenomenon may very well manifest in a macroscopic level.

Nice obfuscation, Num, this has nothing whatever to do with our discussion.

These are deterministic factors. If one were to chart the life of an individual meticulously, in say, a laboratory setting, does that make EACH AND EVERY decision of this individual henceforth utterly predictable, hmmm? Your mechanistic view of reality simply won't fly.

You left out consciouness which is not mechanistic, but your reply doesn't really bear on the discussion does it, hmmm?

Pardon me but such a thing constitutes a blatant violation of the conservation of mass and energy. I have read your site and it suggests no such thing.

Yes, you are finally getting it. Yes, it does suggest that our view of the laws of physics are wrong or incomplete. It does suggest such a thing, in fact it talks about it at some length.

You want unlimited amounts of energy? E=mc^2 is it. Anything you can get your hands on is convertible to energy. Your only problem is accelerating it up to the speed of light.

You may have looked at the site but you certainly didn't pay attention to what you were reading.

 

[numinus]

Are you saying Bill Gates is God?

Designing software, just like most works of art, is a creative process - or the closest thing humans can achieve to creation.

 

[numinus]

Nice obfuscation, Num, this has nothing whatever to do with our discussion.

Why bring up the chaos principle, then?

And I'm the one obfuscating, eh? Unbelieveable!

You left out consciouness which is not mechanistic, but your reply doesn't really bear on the discussion does it, hmmm?

Exactly what I am saying. But it would be so much better if you said it yourself.

What is consciousness, if not a product of some mechanistic principle, eh?

Yes, you are finally getting it. Yes, it does suggest that our view of the laws of physics are wrong or incomplete. It does suggest such a thing, in fact it talks about it at some length.

You pretend to lecture me on what I have been saying all along???? What arrogant cheek!

My discussion of quantum uncertainty and cosmological singularity is geared precisely at giving proof of violations of the conservation of mass and energy - thereby necessitating a radical reformulation of the laws of physics.

HOWEVER, your 'foam' (a very obscure word, I must admit. Cosmological constant, energy density of vacuum, or lambda are more appropriate terms used in present physical cosmology), DOES NOT DEPICT A THERMODYNAMIC ANYTHING. If you are suggesting violations of the conservation principle, the OBVIOUS conclusion is that THERE IS NO CLOSED THERMODYNAMIC SYSTEM - NOT EVEN THE UNIVERSE IN ITS ENTIRETY - NOT EVEN APPROXIMATIONS OF IT AS WE CAN SEE IN THE EVERYDAY INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE.

So, while you are mimicing my posts, the examples that you are giving to support it is ENTIRELY FALSE.

You may have looked at the site but you certainly didn't pay attention to what you were reading.

I have read the site. Unless you will provide me with the mathematical derivation of the assertions it is making, then they are merely unsubstantiated assertions.

Even your example of a magnet placed over a coil of copper wire is absurd. You need to rotate the magnet to induce a TIME-VARYING MAGNETIC FIELD. So you can read it over and over as you please but do not suppose that you can send me on a fool's errand that easily.

 

[9sublime]

Sorry if I'm being a fool but it seems you've strayed to debating advanced physics and not actually relating them to the existence of God. If this isn't the case sorry, but if it is do you mind doing this in another thread? I wouldn't mind bringing it back round to God so I can grill/be grilled niminus a bit.