hope it was worth it

[GenSeneca]

The mess has yet to go away because we continually refuse to map out a meaningful plan and do what it takes to achieve our goals in the region.

OBL is dead, the Taliban have been removed from power.... There are no other realistic "goals" to achieve. Time to go home.

 

[PLC1]

Do you mean the goals we spell out, or what I think the goals ought to be?

The real goals. I'm not sure just what they are.

GenSenica says that the goals were to get rid of OBL and remove the Taliban from power. He's right, those goals (if they really were the goals) have been achieved, and so it's time to go home.

It would have been better had we not gone in to begin with, but if the goals have been achieved, let's go home.

 

[dogtowner]

The real goals. I'm not sure just what they are.

GenSenica says that the goals were to get rid of OBL and remove the Taliban from power. He's right, those goals (if they really were the goals) have been achieved, and so it's time to go home.

It would have been better had we not gone in to begin with, but if the goals have been achieved, let's go home.

my understanding from the start included getting the Afghans to form a new government capable of standing on it's own having eliminated the old one (Taliban). after Obama assumed office he came to realize that this needed to be done (to the consternation of the anti war folks). only variation is in how to define when its done and how.

 

[PLC1]

my understanding from the start included getting the Afghans to form a new government capable of standing on it's own having eliminated the old one (Taliban). after Obama assumed office he came to realize that this needed to be done (to the consternation of the anti war folks). only variation is in how to define when its done and how.

So, that's the goal, to form a new government for Afganistan?

Does it have to be a government that we approve of, or do the Afgans get to choose their own?

 

[dogtowner]

So, that's the goal, to form a new government for Afganistan?

Does it have to be a government that we approve of, or do the Afgans get to choose their own?

as you have seen, they gets their picks by their votes. been plenty of cat herding given that this was a new concept for them. not sure they ever had anything close to it ever.

 

[PLC1]

as you have seen, they gets their picks by their votes. been plenty of cat herding given that this was a new concept for them. not sure they ever had anything close to it ever.

I'm pretty sure that they hadn't.

So, now that they have the idea, maybe our work is done.

 

[BigRob]

The real goals. I'm not sure just what they are.

In late November 2010 (and I have not seen a newer one) the goals were as stated: (You can read the whole report to Congress here)

Disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al Qaeda in Afghanistan and
Pakistan by pursuing the following objectives within Afghanistan:

• Deny al Qaeda a safe haven;

• Reverse the Taliban’s momentum and deny it the ability to overthrow the Afghan
Government; and

• Strengthen the capacity of Afghanistan’s security forces and the Afghan Government so that they can take lead responsibility for Afghanistan’s future.

The three core elements of the strategy to achieve these objectives are:
• A military effort to improve security and create the conditions for a transition;
• A civilian surge that reinforces positive action; and
• An effective partnership with Pakistan.

NATO Strategy, ISAF Campaign Strategy, and Strategic Objectives


• Gain the initiative by protecting the population in densely populated areas where the insurgency has had significant influence;

• Separate insurgency influence from the populace and support Afghan Government sub-national structures to establish rule of law and deliver basic services; and

• Implement population security measures that connect contiguous economic corridors,foster community development and generate employment opportunities.

GenSenica says that the goals were to get rid of OBL and remove the Taliban from power. He's right, those goals (if they really were the goals) have been achieved, and so it's time to go home.

Those were goals spelled out under Bush, but I don't think that was ever the entire plan, and if it was, it was quickly changed.

It would have been better had we not gone in to begin with, but if the goals have been achieved, let's go home.

Wel, if you accept the goals in the November 2010 report, they have not been accomplished...of course it leaves open the question of "will they ever be accomplished", and given our current strategies, it appears unlikely.

 

[BigRob]

OBL is dead, the Taliban have been removed from power.... There are no other realistic "goals" to achieve. Time to go home.

In my response to PLC1 I listed the stated goals. Are any of those legitimate in your opinion?

 

[PLC1]

In late November 2010 (and I have not seen a newer one) the goals were as stated: (You can read the whole report to Congress here)

Disrupting, dismantling, and defeating al Qaeda in Afghanistan and
Pakistan by pursuing the following objectives within Afghanistan:

• Deny al Qaeda a safe haven;

• Reverse the Taliban’s momentum and deny it the ability to overthrow the Afghan
Government; and

• Strengthen the capacity of Afghanistan’s security forces and the Afghan Government so that they can take lead responsibility for Afghanistan’s future.

The three core elements of the strategy to achieve these objectives are:
• A military effort to improve security and create the conditions for a transition;
• A civilian surge that reinforces positive action; and
• An effective partnership with Pakistan.

NATO Strategy, ISAF Campaign Strategy, and Strategic Objectives


• Gain the initiative by protecting the population in densely populated areas where the insurgency has had significant influence;

• Separate insurgency influence from the populace and support Afghan Government sub-national structures to establish rule of law and deliver basic services; and

• Implement population security measures that connect contiguous economic corridors,foster community development and generate employment opportunities.




Those were goals spelled out under Bush, but I don't think that was ever the entire plan, and if it was, it was quickly changed.



Wel, if you accept the goals in the November 2010 report, they have not been accomplished...of course it leaves open the question of "will they ever be accomplished", and given our current strategies, it appears unlikely.

Some of them won't be accomplished for a very long time, if ever. Some seem to be getting further away. For example, "An effective partnership with Pakistan" is getting more and more elusive.

I'm not sure when we'll know that the Taliban doesn't have the ability to overthrow the Afgan government, particularly if they're going to be a part of it.

 

[GenSeneca]

In my response to PLC1 I listed the stated goals. Are any of those legitimate in your opinion?

Only one... Deny AQ a safe haven and we don't have to occupy and rebuild the entire country in order to accomplish that mission.

As for the rest....

The Constitution of Afghanistan:

The Constitution describes Islam as its sacred and state religion. A system of civil law is described, but no law may contradict the beliefs and provisions of Islam. It was widely reported that Sharia law is not specifically mentioned, but Hanafi jurisprudence is one of the six branches of Sharia law. Moreover, concessions are made to Shia jurisprudence in cases arising strictly between Shi'ites.

Followers of other religions are "free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites" within the limits of the law. There is no mention of freedom of thought, and apostasy from Islam is punishable by death.​

We've wasted enough time, money, and blood in that country. Time to go home.

 

[BigRob]

Only one... Deny AQ a safe haven and we don't have to occupy and rebuild the entire country in order to accomplish that mission.

I can agree we don't need to be there for that mission persay...that said, how would you accomplish that goal if you were in charge?

As for the rest....

The Constitution of Afghanistan:

The Constitution describes Islam as its sacred and state religion. A system of civil law is described, but no law may contradict the beliefs and provisions of Islam. It was widely reported that Sharia law is not specifically mentioned, but Hanafi jurisprudence is one of the six branches of Sharia law. Moreover, concessions are made to Shia jurisprudence in cases arising strictly between Shi'ites.

Followers of other religions are "free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites" within the limits of the law. There is no mention of freedom of thought, and apostasy from Islam is punishable by death.​

We've wasted enough time, money, and blood in that country. Time to go home.

The Constitution also says:
"Observing the United Nations Charter and respecting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." -- something that allows for freedom of religion etc.

That aside, I have only heard of one case where this was before a Judge in Afghanistan and it was thrown out -- certainly with a ton of outside pressure -- but thrown out nonetheless.

 

[PLC1]

I can agree we don't need to be there for that mission persay...that said, how would you accomplish that goal if you were in charge?



The Constitution also says:
"Observing the United Nations Charter and respecting the Universal Declaration of Human Rights." -- something that allows for freedom of religion etc.

That aside, I have only heard of one case where this was before a Judge in Afghanistan and it was thrown out -- certainly with a ton of outside pressure -- but thrown out nonetheless.

Is it possible to impose religious freedom on a society that doesn't want it?

 

[Alias]

Is it possible to impose religious freedom on a society that doesn't want it?

Sure. You make it law like we did in the USA. It will take a while. It took a while to end slavery and race is still an issue, but you have to start somewhere. Civilization demands it. I look at it as "progressive".

It's an interesting way you put it....."impose religious freedom". Sounds like you are focing something on people. What is wrong with "improsing religious freedom"? When people are free to practice their religion openly and freely like we do in the USA then we have a much more progressive modern society where all are protected from religious fundamentalist nuts.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[PLC1]

Sure. You make it law like we did in the USA. It will take a while. It took a while to end slavery and race is still an issue, but you have to start somewhere. Civilization demands it. I look at it as "progressive".

It's an interesting way you put it....."impose religious freedom". Sounds like you are focing something on people. What is wrong with "improsing religious freedom"? When people are free to practice their religion openly and freely like we do in the USA then we have a much more progressive modern society where all are protected from religious fundamentalist nuts.

Wouldn't you agree?

Sure, I'd agree, as would most Americans. I'm not so sure about the peoplle of Afganistan, however. According to Genseneca's post above:

The Constitution describes Islam as its sacred and state religion. A system of civil law is described, but no law may contradict the beliefs and provisions of Islam. It was widely reported that Sharia law is not specifically mentioned, but Hanafi jurisprudence is one of the six branches of Sharia law. Moreover, concessions are made to Shia jurisprudence in cases arising strictly between Shi'ites.

Followers of other religions are "free to exercise their faith and perform their religious rites" within the limits of the law. There is no mention of freedom of thought, and apostasy from Islam is punishable by death.

it doesn't seem like the Afgans are much into religious freedom.

 

[Alias]

Sure, I'd agree, as would most Americans. I'm not so sure about the peoplle of Afganistan, however. According to Genseneca's post above:

it doesn't seem like the Afgans are much into religious freedom.

I know. That's the problem. Don't you think it's about time they joined the 21st century since we are spending treasure over there in the name of "national security"? We restructured Germany and Japan to accept freedom. We can do the same thing in Afghanistan if we want to. We just need to stand up to the liberal cultural moonbats who think Islam is just an alternative culture instead of an evil murderous one that denies people human rights and makes slaves of them to religious gangsters.