Heresy

[Dawkinsrocks]

I love you.

You personify the loss of reason that is required by christianity.

Keep 'em coming

Do you really think my problem with the creation story is the 6 days thing?

If god was god he could have done it in six seconds.

 

[numinus]

I love you.

You personify the loss of reason that is required by christianity.

Keep 'em coming

Do you really think my problem with the creation story is the 6 days thing?

If god was god he could have done it in six seconds.

6 seconds, days, years, million years.

Makes no difference when the document being scrutinized is an ALLEGORY.

Duh?

 

[Dr.Who]

Apparently I did since I was the one who posted the definition and asked for a clarification on how you were using the word. Has anyone else ever heard of defining "church" as refering to everyone on the planet based on the concept of "grace" given to us all by nailing somebody up on a stick?

Original sin and God demanding blood revenge never made any sense to me. The Creator of the Universe demands that some poor bastard be nailed up on a stick before He will forgive all of us? Beggars the imagination.

Yes I have heard of that.

It is a well known definition of church. It is often called the universal church or Church with a capital C. It includes every Christian whether they know each other or not.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Oh sorry, I thought you were going to say Harvard, Oxford, Yale, Cambridge, MIT or some other genuine seat of excellence.

The Royal Society is one of the most learned collection of scientists of all time and only 26% profess religious faith.

And that number is dwindling.

Religions is on the way out.

Thank God.

I wonder how many of Num's cited schools teach creationism.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Yes I have heard of that.

It is a well known definition of church. It is often called the universal church or Church with a capital C. It includes every Christian whether they know each other or not.

You said "It includes every Christian whether they know each other or not." That's not what I posted, that's not what Nums posted either, his definition says every single person made by God.

Care to rephrase your answer? You seem to be restricting it to Christians, and yes, I've heard that definition. Num's definition I have never heard despite his claim to it being a universally accepted one.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Certainly. Further response on your part would only make you appear more foolish.
Of course not. I am quite aware of the catholic church's history -- a history that prompted the late pope jp2 to offer the millenium apology. I am also aware of the original us constitution's consent of slavery.
These facts do not demonstrate the church's abhorrence of science anymore than they demonstrate the us constitution's abhorrence of freedom.

Duh?
Get your facts straight. The catholic church does not see any conflict between its own dogma with the theory of evolution presently.
You're probably talking about the redneck illiterate church that you attend.

And did the author of genesis specifically state that he was using the word day as the same 24 hour period we are using today?

Or are you unaware that 6 days can be made to dilate indefinitely long depending on the motion of one's reference frame.Makes perfect sense.

At this juncture it would be good to hear from Nums about the validity of the Bible since he is supporting the Catholic church so vociferously. He admits the Bible is truths, half-truths, and lies used to manipulate people. See his post below:

Perhaps, if you insist on some arbitrary standard of factual correctness. I can only wonder what kind of historical document could withstand that standard of scrutiny. After all, any historical document would necessarily be written from the writer's distinct and subjective point of view.

The different books of the bible were written in different times, in different social and political millieu, and with different target audiences. For instance, revelations was written in that manner perhaps because it was meant for the jews experiencing roman political repression.

Certainly, it was written precisely to fool the morons.

The Catholic church has worst record of human rights violations of any current religion. Right now they are emptying their coffers trying to pay off the victims of priests that they shielded from the consequences of molesting parishoner's children.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Yes, it is good of him to share his divine understanding that permits him to say which parts of the bible are true and which are false er er I mean allegorical.

 

[numinus]

I wonder how many of Num's cited schools teach creationism.

No need to wonder aloud. You can simply google each and everyone of the schools. You might be surprised at the extent of human knowledge the jesuits have involved themselves in.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Unfortunately it remains a fact that the church has tried to hold back science to keep its stranglehold on authority.

It robs the poor to feed the rich and it does a lot more harm than good.

 

[numinus]

You said "It includes every Christian whether they know each other or not." That's not what I posted, that's not what Nums posted either, his definition says every single person made by God.

As I have said, it is the most basic definition of church. It is a definition explained somewhere at the beginning of any catholic catechism -- usually for 10 year-olds.

The church is the PEOPLE OF GOD. The people of god consists of the people god loves enough to bestow grace upon, whether they accept it or not. To my mind, that includes just about everyone -- past, present and future.

Care to rephrase your answer? You seem to be restricting it to Christians, and yes, I've heard that definition. Num's definition I have never heard despite his claim to it being a universally accepted one.

Which brings me to the very nature of christian soteriology. The salvation being offered here is UNCONDITIONAL. Otherwise, it wouldn't be much of a 'good news' or gospel, wouldn't it?

As for the question -- is salvation possible outside the organization of the catholic church heirarchy (and here I find it necessary to qualify my words, lest you misunderstand)?

No less than jp2 answered -- YES.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Salvation from what exactly???

From the sin that was made by the guy that god made knowing how he would turn out?

God made sin and he should pay for it.

If he had the decency to exist

 

[numinus]

At this juncture it would be good to hear from Nums about the validity of the Bible since he is supporting the Catholic church so vociferously. He admits the Bible is truths, half-truths, and lies used to manipulate people. See his post below:

Eh?

I do not know if you are trying to be obnoxious or you simply do not understand what you are talking about.

NO HUMAN KNOWLEDGE CAN BE HELD TRUE WITHIN AN ARBITRARY DEGREE OF EXACTNESS.

pi=3=3.1=3.14=3.142=3.1416 etc. depending on how exact you want it to be. That goes for all transcendental numbers, irrational numbers and a host of solutions for partial differentials and binomial expansions

Is it intellectually honest to say, therefore, that mathematics is nothing more than a collection of truths, half-truths and lies????

Now, instead of pounding away at your keyboard on whatever catches your fancy, you might want to think about that.

The Catholic church has worst record of human rights violations of any current religion. Right now they are emptying their coffers trying to pay off the victims of priests that they shielded from the consequences of molesting parishoner's children.

Like this statement right here. Have you done a count of human rights violations of current religions?

On what basis do you consider an act a violation of human rights and when is such an act attributable equally to all members of that religion? And what is the factual basis you are using to determine if a human rights violation has indeed been committed.

And since you are fond of determining the comparative merits of paradigms, have you ever wondered exactly how many human rights violations have been committed in the name of, say, democracy?

 

[numinus]

Salvation from what exactly???

From the sin that was made by the guy that god made knowing how he would turn out?

God made sin and he should pay for it.

If he had the decency to exist

More nonsense that everyone has grown to expect from you.

Are you actually blaming god for the sins you have committed? Or are you somehow expecting that you become immune to the logical consequences of your own actions?

Unbelieveable stupidity!

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Look numinus. If you continue to call me stupid you are going to look even more ridiculous when I demonstrate the weakness of your argument.

You can rant as much as you like but god made lucipher and he knew how he would turn out.

He did not have to make lucipher at all but chose to nevertheless.

He could have made lucipher a goody two shoes angel if he had wanted to.

He could have stopped him from falling if he had wanted to.

He could have made a world where people don't burn in hell forever if he had wanted to.

That makes god responsible for how he did make the world.

Cue an incoherent rant that does not address this point.

 

[numinus]

Look numinus. If you continue to call me stupid you are going to look even more ridiculous when I demonstrate the weakness of your argument.

Ho-hum.

I have been prompting you to demonstrate your logic ages ago. Pardon me for not holding my breath.

You can rant as much as you like but god made lucipher and he knew how he would turn out.

Now you wish to discuss genesis as if it were a factual story? Ok.

Omniscience. Correct.

He did not have to make lucipher at all but chose to nevertheless.

Creative will. Correct.

He could have made lucipher a goody two shoes angel if he had wanted to.

He gave lucifer something better -- free will.

My 6 year old understands the relative merits of owning a real pet and a stuffed animal.

Why can't you?

He could have stopped him from falling if he had wanted to.

You mean god could have made lucifer's choices for him. Sure. But it wouldn't be much of a free will, would it? Besides, he knows how existence would play out, so he must have had his reasons.

He could have made a world where people don't burn in hell forever if he had wanted to.

Now you wish to exercise your free will without the logical consequences of your own actions?

I have already said this countless times -- a moral good is its own reward. Conversely, an immoral act is its own punishment. There is no denying the operation of logic. It is inescapable. Now if you wish to suffer the consequences of an immoral action over and over for all eternity, then by all means, you are free to do that as well.

That makes god responsible for how he did make the world.

The human condition is what humans make of it. You were given the free will to make it as rewarding or as punishing as you wish it to be. God can only be happy for the rewards you reap or mournful of the adverse consequences of YOUR OWN ACTIONS.

And its not like he doesn't give a sh1t. He even presented himself to man's judgement for the effort.

Is that simple enough for you?

Cue an incoherent rant that does not address this point.

Your incoherent rants have been playing out since you started membership in this forum, fyi.