Govt schools still turning out garbage

[Libsmasher]

2007 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) data and state assessment results.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/18850354.html

 

[Pandora]

2007 National Assessment of Educational Progress (NAEP) data and state assessment results.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/ednext/18850354.html

This proves throwing money at a problem does not solve it but that is what they want, More money. And they will get it and next year the scores will not be any better. But all the teachers and administration will have a raise.

 

[The Scotsman]

I recall reading somewhere that a lot of American kids are coming to the UK as they get a better education here than in the States. The biggest fear in America is that the school systems are "dumbing down" to keep pass rates high (just like in the UK state sector schools).

Private schools in the UK are doing very well out of Americans at the moment and I think that some of your universities are opening up campuses here too!

 

[PLC1]

The schools in "socialist" Europe seem to be doing a lot better than the ones in the US. Maybe what is needed is a head to head comparison to see what they are doing that we are not, or perhaps what the societal differences might be.

For example:

Do schools in other countries try to pretend that every child can become proficient enough in academics to attend the university, or do they segregate them based on ability at some point?

How do schools in other countries do with children who don't speak the language of the country?

And in this country:

Are all of the "government" schools having difficulty maintaining high academic standards? What is the difference between inner city schools and suburban ones?

If not, what are the differences?

Since there is no modern, industrialized nation anywhere that uses private education exclusively, or even for a majority of students, we need to look at public schools everywhere and not simply use low test scores in some districts as evidence that public schools are turning out "garbage" (what an insult to high achieving graduates!)

Calling the graduates of this public school "garbage", for example, is simply spreading ignorance.

 

[ilikeboobs]

Once again, it proves that $$$ does not equal academic success.
Saw a study a few years ago in the local paper about how some private schools in my area (Minneapolis, Minnesota) are getting almost twice the positive results for 1/2 the money.

Can you understand why people want vouchers? Why should I have to pay tuition for a failing public school AND tuition for my own kids to attend a private school? The gubment should give AT LEAST the cost of my kids' private school back to me in the form of a voucher. That way they can still keep some of my money to fund their sh*tty excuses of schools, while my kids can learn about math, science, history and the other necessities.

I think part of the problem is that public schools can't discipline kids. Everything goes. There is no right or wrong behavior. Private schools can boot kids for miniscule things, which helps keep children in line. But public schools? Pfft...

They're more interested in pushing agendas rather than teaching the basics.

 

[The Scotsman]

The schools in "socialist" Europe

.....is the socialist bit important? normally we're just called "Europeans" nothing else.

Do schools in other countries try to pretend that every child can become proficient enough in academics to attend the university, or do they segregate them based on ability at some point?

short answer is no not really.

In the UK for example in the County of Kent (where I live) we have academic streaming. At the age of 10/11 kids of a certain academic standard (determind by their teachers) do an exam, if they achieve a result over a certain level they can attend a "Grammar Schools" which are basically schools for those with more brains (no common sense required though as my kid goes to one!!)

In Germany and France much the same principal applies - but in Germany for example in the high schools you can opt out of certain academic subjects and concentrate of trades - bricklaying or car mechanics or plumbing that kind of thing.

Certain subjects are compulsory though for example in Germany kids must learn start English lesson and those continue all the way through until they leave school they also must choose a second language.

How do schools in other countries do with children who don't speak the language of the country?

They pitch in with the rest of the class.....its amazing how quickly they learn! We have many Polich, Lithuanian, Rumanians and god only knows what else...they all just get on with it!

 

[Here We Go]

How can any child get an education these days anyway? They have to contend with drug solicitation, lockdowns due to mass murderers and actual murders in school. Teachers that cannot control their classes, lest some of the parents intervene with some sort of silly lawsuit. Good teachers are probably in fear of some of those delinquents and some teachers get beat up. "Blackboard Jungle" has nothing on the present school system. I feel sorry for teachers and I feel sorry for students that want to learn.

 

[PLC1]

.....is the socialist bit important? normally we're just called "Europeans" nothing else.




short answer is no not really.

In the UK for example in the County of Kent (where I live) we have academic streaming. At the age of 10/11 kids of a certain academic standard (determind by their teachers) do an exam, if they achieve a result over a certain level they can attend a "Grammar Schools" which are basically schools for those with more brains (no common sense required though as my kid goes to one!!)

In Germany and France much the same principal applies - but in Germany for example in the high schools you can opt out of certain academic subjects and concentrate of trades - bricklaying or car mechanics or plumbing that kind of thing.

Certain subjects are compulsory though for example in Germany kids must learn start English lesson and those continue all the way through until they leave school they also must choose a second language.



They pitch in with the rest of the class.....its amazing how quickly they learn! We have many Polich, Lithuanian, Rumanians and god only knows what else...they all just get on with it!

When I put "socialist" in quotes, I'm really poking fun at the view of some that Europe is socialistic, and saying that maybe their brand of "socialism" isn't so bad.

There is a good summary of one of the main differences between US schools and those in Europe. Here, all of the students, regardless of interest or ability, have to perform on the all important end of year test, or the school (not the kids) is seen as failing.

What we need to do is quit whining about how awful the public schools are, and legislate some real reforms. For example:

More choices. Why should parents have to use the school assigned to their neighborhood? Let the parents choose. Why should everyone be forced into an academic program? Let's have some trades taught as well.

More accountability: Let schools set standards, and boot students who won't meet those standards, just like private schools do. Let there be standards for teachers, of course, but for kids as well.

Fewer layers of bureaucracy. Put the money where it counts, in the classrooms.

Vouchers is the hue and cry of the "public schools are failing" voices, in other words, "let me get my kids out." The problem is, there aren't enough quality private schools to go around. We'd be much better off to give parents who choose private education a tax break, and allow all parents a choice of where to send their kids.

Get rid of NCLB and get the federal bureaucracy out of education. All NCLB does is create a test centered curriculum with little time or resources for anything that isn't on the test. The only reason for NCLB is to make money for the test publisher, who, BTW, is friends with the Bush family (not that such friendship proves a cause and effect relationship necessarily, of course.)

 

[Mr.Dysfunctional]

I actually think alot of the posts in the newest forum "End govt schools" seem to read into the answer that is needed for our public school system as it stands.

Allowing admininstration to actively expel problematic students and repeat offenders and allow legislation that would prevent them from eating frizilous lawsuits from ignorant parents only looking to make a quick buck would be probably the largest answer as it stands. The rest could then be pointed at meaningless tests that require more memorization versus actual teaching, advancing intelligent students forward into more rigurous schools designed to further them and finally ousting lack-luster teachers who are only there to collect a pay-check. Raising their paychecks would also help because it would make teaching seem more of lucarative possiblity for college students like myself, allowing more competition within the field and bringing the ever smarter college student into positions that would better help education as a whole.

As it stands there are no means of removing parents who do not care and their under discplined children from the scenario. We have moved further and further away from strong punishment for misbehaviour and created a student body who thinks it can get away with whatever the teenage mind can create.

 

[GOP(JT)]

I'm a senior in public high school and I'll tell you, the punishment system is waaaaay out of whack. Lawsuits have our school administration scared out of its whits to the point where you can't even defend yourself if attacked. For example, if I'm walking down the hall and some punk jumps me as I turn the corner, the school handbook allows me to do nothing more than yell for help as I get my face beat in. I would probably get the same punishment (5 days of suspension) as the attacker if I were to so much as throw a punch and it would go on my permanent record. This, to me is just ridiculous. Gone are the days when you had to be able to back up your big mouth and take responsibility for your actions.

I've also noticed that schools in America tend to focus all their attention on the lowest performing students instead of those that excel. We have maybe 2 honors programs (given we're a small school) but a plethora of remedial programs. I'm quite convinced that that is why our country continues to turn out mediocre workers instead of workers that can compete in a global market. The bottom line is that some students CAN NOT function at that level. Some people are meant to be plumbers and mechanics and the like and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that but the schools can't seem to get it through their heads that not everybody is capable or even wants to be a doctor or a CEO so they just focus on those students that aren't made for that kind of job, trying to force them to be rather than accentuating their strengths which may lie in mechanics or plumbing or, "heaven forbid", being a garbage man... Meanwhile, students who are wired for that kind of job are left to rot in mediocrity rather than challenging them and accentuating their strengths.

 

[all_arm]

I'm a senior in public high school and I'll tell you, the punishment system is waaaaay out of whack. Lawsuits have our school administration scared out of its whits to the point where you can't even defend yourself if attacked. For example, if I'm walking down the hall and some punk jumps me as I turn the corner, the school handbook allows me to do nothing more than yell for help as I get my face beat in. I would probably get the same punishment (5 days of suspension) as the attacker if I were to so much as throw a punch and it would go on my permanent record. This, to me is just ridiculous. Gone are the days when you had to be able to back up your big mouth and take responsibility for your actions.

I've also noticed that schools in America tend to focus all their attention on the lowest performing students instead of those that excel. We have maybe 2 honors programs (given we're a small school) but a plethora of remedial programs. I'm quite convinced that that is why our country continues to turn out mediocre workers instead of workers that can compete in a global market. The bottom line is that some students CAN NOT function at that level. Some people are meant to be plumbers and mechanics and the like and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that but the schools can't seem to get it through their heads that not everybody is capable or even wants to be a doctor or a CEO so they just focus on those students that aren't made for that kind of job, trying to force them to be rather than accentuating their strengths which may lie in mechanics or plumbing or, "heaven forbid", being a garbage man... Meanwhile, students who are wired for that kind of job are left to rot in mediocrity rather than challenging them and accentuating their strengths.

it's all a matter of priorities, both in the discipline system as well as the education.

curricula are based on making sure the crappiest student (in a given subject) succeeds, as that is the determining factor for the school's funding.

as far as discipline, yes, the zero tolerance nanny-moralist nonsense is out of control. but if you're in the type of school where you're liable to get jumped walking around any given corner, maybe THAT public school isn't the best choice!

 

[Federal Farmer]

This is SO sad. Abigail Adams managed to teach her own children how to read, write, and speak English AND Latin, as well as doing "their sums" by the time they were 12 years old! Today, we've got a system that is barely capable of being able to teach young people how to SPEAK English, but their writing abilities and reading comprehension are so woefully inadequate as to be a national EMBARASSMENT!

The difference between the 60's when I was in school, and today is a constant source of frustration for me, as I'm having to UN-teach my grandchildren all of the garbage that their teachers have polluted their minds with, and have even gone to the schools for a conference with teachers and Staff, and told them in no uncertain terms what I think of their efforts!

 

[all_arm]

This is SO sad. Abigail Adams managed to teach her own children how to read, write, and speak English AND Latin, as well as doing "their sums" by the time they were 12 years old! Today, we've got a system that is barely capable of being able to teach young people how to SPEAK English, but their writing abilities and reading comprehension are so woefully inadequate as to be a national EMBARASSMENT!

The difference between the 60's when I was in school, and today is a constant source of frustration for me, as I'm having to UN-teach my grandchildren all of the garbage that their teachers have polluted their minds with, and have even gone to the schools for a conference with teachers and Staff, and told them in no uncertain terms what I think of their efforts!

good for you being involved. when i am a parent i will be happy to move, or if necessary, pay, to ensure my kids have a good education.

i went to one of the best public schools in the country (newsweek ranked it #6) so i find it both curious and appalling that people can leave school and be so undereducated. as a current college student, i see it a lot- people take their general ed requirements, which are equivalent to my freshman year of high school, and they struggle with it! it's really awful.

ps. it seems like about 3/4ths of the regular posters here are on your ignore list! haha, it must be a very streamlined view.

 

[BigRob]

I'm a senior in public high school and I'll tell you, the punishment system is waaaaay out of whack. Lawsuits have our school administration scared out of its whits to the point where you can't even defend yourself if attacked. For example, if I'm walking down the hall and some punk jumps me as I turn the corner, the school handbook allows me to do nothing more than yell for help as I get my face beat in. I would probably get the same punishment (5 days of suspension) as the attacker if I were to so much as throw a punch and it would go on my permanent record. This, to me is just ridiculous. Gone are the days when you had to be able to back up your big mouth and take responsibility for your actions.

I've also noticed that schools in America tend to focus all their attention on the lowest performing students instead of those that excel. We have maybe 2 honors programs (given we're a small school) but a plethora of remedial programs. I'm quite convinced that that is why our country continues to turn out mediocre workers instead of workers that can compete in a global market. The bottom line is that some students CAN NOT function at that level. Some people are meant to be plumbers and mechanics and the like and there is absolutely NOTHING wrong with that but the schools can't seem to get it through their heads that not everybody is capable or even wants to be a doctor or a CEO so they just focus on those students that aren't made for that kind of job, trying to force them to be rather than accentuating their strengths which may lie in mechanics or plumbing or, "heaven forbid", being a garbage man... Meanwhile, students who are wired for that kind of job are left to rot in mediocrity rather than challenging them and accentuating their strengths.

I have never gone to a public school (even college and grad school were private), so your assertions on that would be better than mine.

That said, the private schools that I went to, we were divided up based on grades and ability starting in the 3rd grade. It could be changed depending on continued performance, but that carried all the way through up until High School were then we were put in Honors and AP classes.

So, in the private school system (which has less money and pays less than the public school system in most cases) manages to churn out quality student after quality student (100% of my graduating class in High School went to college) while the public school system continues to fail into oblivion.

 

[all_arm]

I have never gone to a public school (even college and grad school were private), so your assertions on that would be better than mine.

That said, the private schools that I went to, we were divided up based on grades and ability starting in the 3rd grade. It could be changed depending on continued performance, but that carried all the way through up until High School were then we were put in Honors and AP classes.

So, in the private school system (which has less money and pays less than the public school system in most cases) manages to churn out quality student after quality student (100% of my graduating class in High School went to college) while the public school system continues to fail into oblivion.

depending on location, i seriously doubt that private schools pay less than public schools, on average. i know that here, a teacher in a public school is lucky to be making $50,000/yr by the time they retire. my mom is a special needs aide and makes less than $20,000.

that's another big part of the problem: why would anyone want to teach, given the crap pay?