Global Warming

You know, you haven't replied on the increased min wage thread for a while.

I'm sorry. I didn't feel like repeating myself over and over again. It seemed to me that we were going in circles. Clearly, we disagree. If we really want me to reply to your post I will, but I'm warning you that you'll be hearing the same thing that I said earlier in the thread.

Because we're liberals and tend to overreact, as conservatives tend to under react (in my opinion).

The Right tends to fight human evil such as communism and Islamic totalitarianism. Liberals avoid confronting such evils and concentrates its attention instead on socioeconomic inequality, environmental problems and capitalism. Global warming meets all three of these criteria of evil. By burning fossil fuels, rich countries pollute more, the environment is being despoiled and big business increases its profits.

I just don't like them violating the constitution, but if it really has helped our country then so be it.

It's not a violation of the constitution -- a discussion for a different thread on a different day.

It's a ****ing wildlife refuge,

Exactly.
 
Werbung:
You challenged me to rebut your post -- but didn't even make an argument, so I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to rebut.

You seem to have done a good job picking out the parts that make sense.

USMC the Almighty said:
Harvard astrophysicist Sallie Baliunas says added carbon dioxide in the atmosphere may actually benefit the world because more CO2 helps plants grow. Warmer winters would give farmers a longer harvest season.

This is from my post:

"But this would probably only be short term and you're right, agriculture would benefit."

USMC the Almighty said:
And I'll kindly repost my friend palerider's remarks that you ignored: "...our quality of life will improve considerably on a warmer earth. You really haven't looked at this subject beyond what the "high priests" of global climate change have told you have you? We know for a fact that the people who were living during the medieval warm period between 800 and 1300 AD (which by the way was considerably warmer than today) had an easier, more productive, and more abundant life than those who lived on either side of it until the age of machines began.

Exactly. The Industrial Revolution caused undesirable living conditions and was the start of major pollution.

USMC the Almighty (or should I say palerider) said:
A warmer earth will have more rainfall, it will cost less to heat, more of the earth will become arable and in turn, open up vast areas of land to food production that produce nothing now. Historically, (in earth terms) life flourishes at a rate that we have never seen during the warm periods and both plants and animals struggle during the cool periods and with one notable exception at the end of the Permian (due to volcanic activity on a massive scale) major die offs of species have happened during cold periods."

You don't seem to understand other problems associated with global warming, like the melting of the ice caps. Also, would you like to live in a world with few forests and lots and lots of pollution?

USMC the Almighty said:
"If the models are correct, global warming reduces the temperature differences between the poles and the equator. When you have less difference in temperature, you have less excitation of extra-tropical storms, not more. Claims for starkly higher temperatures are based upon there being more humidity, not less--hardly a case for more storminess with global warming."

-- Richard Lindzen, Alfred P. Sloan Professor of Atmospheric Science at MIT

More Scientists Say Global Warming Causes Stronger Hurricanes.

abcnews.go.com/2020/HurricaneRita/story?id=1154125&page=1

But this issue is still being debated and no one has a sure answer yet. So I stand partially corrected.

USMC the Almighty said:
This doesn't really make sense to me, but then again, I'm not a scientist. How would melting ice caps won't overflow the oceans anymore than melting ice cubes overflow an already full glass of water?

Because ice sheets like in Greenland and Antarctica on on land and are melting at a very fast rate. They fall into the water and raise the ocean level. But I see what you're saying, and things floating in the water like glaciers don't affect water level.

USMC the Almighty said:
And further, global warming could actually be causing certain glaciers to grow contend numerous sources. Glaciers are growing in Norway, New Zealand and even the United States. The U.S. Forest Service reports that the Hubbard Glacier in Alaska's Tongass National Forest is advancing so rapidly, it threatens to close off a major fjord. In addition, evidence so far suggests that the Greenland ice sheet is actually growing on average.

Hmm I just researched this and I didn't know that. Well disregard some of the above stuff I wrote when appropriate.
 
And it's exactly this warming trend that should have you concerned about cooling. We are currently in the midst of a Modern Maximum, an unusually long period of years in which each 11-year warming period has started up more abruptly and gone into higher sunspot activity than previous eras except for the Medieval Maximum, and the 11-year cooling periods have never cooled down to previous minima levels. So what you see is a spikey chart showing the maxima and minima in an rising slope, but the bottom of the spikes never reaching prior levels of coolness. It started approximately around 1950, and could be confusing the global warming issue to a considerable degree, given that sunspot minima have been associated with such events as the Little Ice Age (Maunder Minimum) and a sunspot maximum like the current one is associated with the Medieval Warm Period. The Little Ice Age/Maunder Minimum and the Medieval Warm Period/Medieval Maximum are very strong indications of a good case for a solar cause.

At any rate, the earth's climate is cyclical, and since we are at the top of the curve right now (as, according to NASA, we are right now peaking out in terms of warmth as indicated by the sun's magnetic field flipping [http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2001/ast15feb_1.htm]) it is inevitable that the temperature will continue its well-established pattern and begin cooling: http://www.smeter.net/propagation/sunspots/current-sunspot-cycle.php

If NASA is right, we can expect global temperatures to fall for the next 25 years, at least.

Indications are that we are entering another Little Ice Age. Following the climate patterns of the last 9,000 years, we can expect the coming Little Ice Age to be colder and longer than the last one (which lasted 400 years).

If atmospheric CO2 had a greenhouse warming effect, which sadly it doesn’t, it would be a good idea to inject as much CO2 into the atmosphere as we can. Warmer is decidedly better than cooler, and that is obvious when the entire Holocene and Pleistocene are considered.

OK, the earth is in a natural warming process right now, you convinced me. But I'd like to see your evidence for the bolded statement, because it's obviously made up.

Carbon Dioxide (CO2) is a colorless, odorless non-flammable gas and is the most prominent Greenhouse gas in Earth's atmosphere.

www.umich.edu/~gs265/society/greenhouse.htm
 
I'm sorry. I didn't feel like repeating myself over and over again. It seemed to me that we were going in circles. Clearly, we disagree. If we really want me to reply to your post I will, but I'm warning you that you'll be hearing the same thing that I said earlier in the thread.

OK please do.

[QUOTE the Almighty]The Right tends to fight human evil such as communism and Islamic totalitarianism.[/QUOTE]

That's your opinion that communism and Islam are human evil. Many people would disagree. I could say that Christians are evil because Hitler was Christian, and that capitalists are evil because they don't have any connection with the workers they employ and really don't care about them (not that I don't support capitalism). Why do you have the right to kill people based on ideology but others don't?

USMC the Almighty said:
Liberals avoid confronting such evils and concentrates its attention instead on socioeconomic inequality, environmental problems and capitalism.

Once again I support capitalism, and these other things I see as very important.

USMC the Almighty said:
Global warming meets all three of these criteria of evil. By burning fossil fuels, rich countries pollute more, the environment is being despoiled and big business increases its profits.

That sounds about right. Do you disagree with the truth of that statement?

USMC the Almighty said:
It's not a violation of the constitution -- a discussion for a different thread on a different day.

I think it is being discussed on another thread right now so I'll leave it there.

USMC the Almighty said:

So you support killing thousands of animals to get oil that's available elsewhere?
 
You don't seem to understand other problems associated with global warming, like the melting of the ice caps. Also, would you like to live in a world with few forests and lots and lots of pollution?

No, of course not. We're talking about global warming, not environmental regulation.

But this issue is still being debated and no one has a sure answer yet. So I stand partially corrected.

Fair enough.

Because ice sheets like in Greenland and Antarctica on on land and are melting at a very fast rate. They fall into the water and raise the ocean level. But I see what you're saying, and things floating in the water like glaciers don't affect water level.

Again, that's fair.

Hmm I just researched this and I didn't know that. Well disregard some of the above stuff I wrote when appropriate.

Sure thing.
 
USMC the Almighty said:
What bolded statement?

Sorry, forgot to bold it. It's this one:

"If atmospheric CO2 had a greenhouse warming effect, which sadly it doesn’t,"

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and adds to the greenhouse effect. I want to see your justification that it doesn't, because if that's true I've wasted a lot of time. But I researched it and clearly it is a greenhouse gas.
 
Sorry, forgot to bold it. It's this one:

"If atmospheric CO2 had a greenhouse warming effect, which sadly it doesn’t,"

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and adds to the greenhouse effect. I want to see your justification that it doesn't, because if that's true I've wasted a lot of time. But I researched it and clearly it is a greenhouse gas.

While CO2 is technically a "greenhouse gas" it doesn't have nearly the effect that you contend it does.

May I direct back to this post:
https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1859&postcount=35

"The most important players on the greenhouse stage are water vapor and clouds. Carbon dioxide has been increased to about 0.038% of the atmosphere (possibly from about 0.028% pre-Industrial Revolution) while water in its various forms ranges from 0% to 4% of the atmosphere and its properties vary by what form it is in and even at what altitude it is found in the atmosphere. In simple terms, however, the bulk of Earth's greenhouse effect is due to water vapor by virtue of its abundance. Water accounts for about 90% of the Earth's greenhouse effect -- perhaps 70% is due to water vapor and about 20% due to clouds (mostly water droplets), some estimates put water as high as 95% of Earth's total greenhouse effect. The remaining portion comes from carbon dioxide, nitrous oxide, methane, ozone and miscellaneous other "minor greenhouse gases." As an example of the relative importance of water it should be noted that changes in the relative humidity on the order of 1.3-4% are equivalent to the effect of doubling CO2.

The adjacent radiation absorption window graphic gives an idea of which molecules absorb various wavelengths. Where the shaded portions completely span between 2 lines it indicates that particular wavelength is fully absorbed and the "window" is saturated (or said to be "closed"). Rather obviously, once a window is saturated adding more gases with the same properties will do nothing. This point seems to cause confusion for some people so perhaps consider multiple shades on a window with each shade blocking half the light coming through - pull one shade and you reduce the light source by half, pull another so you block half the light coming through the first shade, etc.. The effect of each shade diminishes as you keep adding more and eventually you get no additional effect - you have saturated or blocked the radiation window and it makes no difference if you double or quadruple the number of shades again."

http://www.junkscience.com/Greenhouse/

"Just how much of the "Greenhouse Effect" is caused by human activity?

It is about 0.28%, if water vapor is taken into account...Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect...Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (4). Interestingly, many "facts and figures' regarding global warming completely ignore the powerful effects of water vapor in the greenhouse system, carelessly (perhaps, deliberately) overstating human impacts as much as 20-fold.

Water vapor is 99.999% of natural origin. Other atmospheric greenhouse gases, carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), and miscellaneous other gases (CFC's, etc.), are also mostly of natural origin (except for the latter, which is mostly anthropogenic).

Human activites contribute slightly to greenhouse gas concentrations through farming, manufacturing, power generation, and transportation. However, these emissions are so dwarfed in comparison to emissions from natural sources we can do nothing about, that even the most costly efforts to limit human emissions would have a very small-- perhaps undetectable-- effect on global climate."

-- Of the 186 billion tons of CO2 that enter earth's atmosphere each year from all sources, only 6 billion tons are from human activity. Approximately 90 billion tons come from biologic activity in earth's oceans and another 90 billion tons from such sources as volcanoes and decaying land plants.

-- At 368 parts per million CO2 is a minor constituent of earth's atmosphere-- less than 4/100ths of 1% of all gases present. Compared to former geologic times, earth's current atmosphere is CO2- impoverished.

-- CO2 is odorless, colorless, and tasteless. Plants absorb CO2 and emit oxygen as a waste product. Humans and animals breathe oxygen and emit CO2 as a waste product. Carbon dioxide is a nutrient, not a pollutant, and all life-- plants and animals alike-- benefit from more of it. All life on earth is carbon-based and CO2 is an essential ingredient. When plant-growers want to stimulate plant growth, they introduce more carbon dioxide.

-- CO2 that goes into the atmosphere does not stay there but is continually recycled by terrestrial plant life and earth's oceans-- the great retirement home for most terrestrial carbon dioxide.


check out the graphs:
http://www.geocraft.com/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html
 
Yes, I am. You obviously have never studied the climate, because even change that appears small can have a huge impact.

You seem to have some difficulty in separating reality from computer models. I don't blame you because your high priests don't make it clear to you, or anyone else, when they are citing the results of climate simulations and models and when they are citing observational data, that being, data collected from actual measurements.

We know from over a half a million years worth of ice cores, and about 600 million years worth of sedimentary data that rising CO2 atmospheric CO2 levels lag behind rising temperatures. Rising CO2 levels are a result of increased temperatures, not a cause. The computer models suggest that a small change in atmospheric CO2 can cause a change in global temperature, but there is no actual data to support that. If you are interested in seeing the record so far on the accuracy of computer modeling here is a comprehensive study.

http://www.warwickhughes.com/hoyt/scorecard.htm

Computer modeliing is notoriously inaccurate. When they can't make a model that accurately reflects what the temperature was and is, and how it was and is affected by various forcings, how do you put any trust at all in what these models are predicting for the future?

The reason that CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere lag behind a rise in temperature is that warm water can not hold as much CO2 as cold water. When the mean temperature rises, the oceans rise and in turn, release held CO2, thus raising the atmospheric CO2 concentrations.

It appears that it is you who has never studied climate change. You have memorized the misinformation that has been given to you quite well though. Memorization, however, does not constitute study. Study would entail actually understanding the science and few, with the exception of the high priests, who understand the science accept AGW theory.

It's water vapor, and there's much more of it. Water vapor levels are also a problem, although CO2 has had the most drastic change and is the most effective on most people.

You are right that water vapor is the most abundant greenhouse gas but you are dead wrong when you claim that CO2 has the most impact. Water vapor accounts for 95% of the earth's greenhouse effect. Are you aware that computer models don't include water vapor in their calculations because we don't posess enough computing power to include water vapor because of its complexity. Imagine, taking computer models seriously when they don't even include the source of 95% of the earth's greehouse effect.

Water vapor is 99.999% natural in origin. And the vast bulk of other greenhouse gases are also natural in origin. As I have said, mankind's entire CO2 production is not enough to even overcome the natural deviation from year to year in the earth's own CO2 making machinery.

Refer back to the historical temperature chart that I provided. Note that the earth has a temperature range in its ups and downs and it doesn't really matter whether the atmospheric CO2 concentrations are 7000 parts per million or 380 parts per million, the temperatures go on as they have always gone on. This is a perfect example of observational data not matching the computer models. Now what are you going to believe? What you can actually measure and see, or what a computer tells you that you should have seen?

Here is a graphic depicting man's contribution to the total atmospheric CO2 concentration.

image270b.gif


As I said, we don't even make enough to overcome the natural deviation.

Here is a graphic illustrating man's contribution to the total greenouse effect based on observational data as opposed to computer models.

image270f.gif


As you can see man's contribution to atmospheric CO2 is responsible for a whopping 0.117% of the greenhouse effect. that is one hundred and seventeen one thousanths of one percent of the greenhouse effect. Go try and scare little kids with AGW theory, not me.

We aren't debating that the earth is warming and that CO2 is rising, we're debating whether humans are causing it or not.

Mankind is responsible for a total of 0.278% of the total greenhouse effect. Do you grasp the insignifigance of two hundred and seventy eight one thousanths of one percent? There is no debate. The AGW scare is based on computer models which have a history of being wrong.


We need to create incentives for companies to move toward nuclear power and hydrogen-powered cars. The technology is nearly here; all we need to do is guide our economy in the right direction.

You can't create incentives that are equal to profit motive. We will not have these sources of energy until it becomes profitable to develop them and when it does become profitable, they will appear more quickly than you can imagine.

I guess you didn't catch the sarcasm in that part. I don't really think we're all going to die anytime soon, I just think global warming is going to cause undesirable living conditions.

Have you ever noticed that people (if they can afford to do so) tend to migrate from cold areas to warm areas? Exactly what is it about living in warm conditions that you believe will be "undesirable"?

Also more rainfall and unpredictable storm systems will wreak havoc on agriculture in places like Africa. The crops there are already at their warmest point possible to grow. But this would probably only be short term and you're right, agriculture would benefit. But there are other problems, like flooding due to the ice caps melting.


The weather is already unpredictable. Tell me, how much of the world's food production is presently grown in Africa? And are you trying to argue that other crops wouldn't grow in Africa? Look at your paleohistory. When the earth is in its warm periods, there were no deserts. The whole earth was green.

If the entire arctic ice cap melted today, the mean sea level would drop considerably. The arctic ice cap is floating, ice displaces more area than melted water. Melt the ice and sea level goes down. And since warmer temperatures will result in more rainfall, there is no assurace that melting the rest of the ice will result in any signifigant rise in sea level. The fact is that the earth has warmed to the point that no ice at all existed over and over and over and it is in the process of doing it again. With us, or without us.

One other thing.

060925_warmchart_hmed_3p_standard.jpg


Get yourself a new temperature chart to believe in. This one is based on computer modeling and not actual observational data. It is accepted, even by the high priests at the IPCC that the earth has warmed .6 degrees in the past century with 70% of that temperature rise happening in the first half of the past century. Your chart shows almost a .8 degree rise in the past century with over half the rise happening in the past 20 years. Just another example of believing what a computer tells you that you should have seen in lieu of what you have actually seen and measured.
 
Wow, great metaphors! You sure are at good spewing out bull**** that just takes up space and really doesn't represent anything.

It is you who is using information from computer models rather than actual observed data to make the case for AGW. If you use actual numbers, there is no debate.

And are you saying that the metaphors are inaccurate, or that you just don't like them?

Back to the point, the pattern of climate change has been climbing. A few years of cooling doesn't eliminate the overall warming trend. Also, I don't know where you get the cooling, can you provide a source? Here's one of mine:

060925_warmchart_hmed_3p.standard.jpg

The temperature has been rising for tens of thousands of years. The ice has used to extend to Texas. It has melted back all the way to the far north of canada and it did that without the benefit of a single internal combustion engine. Now since the ice has melted back that far without our help, what makes you believe that suddenly, we are responsible for the warming trend that has been going on since we were using stone tools?

ANd your chart? Get a new one. That one is based on computer models and not observational data. Even the IPCC acknowledges that the earth has warmed .6 degrees C in the past century with about 70% of the warming taking place in the first half of the last century. Your chart reflects the almost .8 degree rise that computer models said shoud have happened and they have most of that rise happening in the past 20 years. The computer models are almost never right.
 
It's a ****ing wildlife refuge, of course people are going to oppose it. Why not drill in the grand canyon? Or in Yosemite? How about Yellowstone? Would you support that? (If there was oil there of course)

Another example of believing what you are told rather than what is real. I have been to the area that they want to drill in ANWR. I was stationed in Alaska in the 70's and had the opportunity to see most of the state. In the area they want to drill, there is no wildlife. Not even birds. There are no plants, There is nothing but ice and howling wind for most of the year. The pictures they show you of caribou and birds and cute little foxes is in ANWR but it is hundreds of miles south of where they want to drill. ANWR is the size of South Carolina and the area they want to drill is about the size of a small town.

ANd if you are serious about getting out from under the thumb of foriegners for our energy needs, then yes. lets drill wherever the oil happens to be. Modern technology is far different from the old days when the gushers flooded the landscape with oil. Modern drilling operations have a very small footprint.
 
Sorry, forgot to bold it. It's this one:

"If atmospheric CO2 had a greenhouse warming effect, which sadly it doesn’t,"

CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and adds to the greenhouse effect. I want to see your justification that it doesn't, because if that's true I've wasted a lot of time. But I researched it and clearly it is a greenhouse gas.

Do a bit of research into ice cores. It is clear that rising atmospheric CO2 is an effect, not a cause. The rising CO2 lags behind the rising temperatures because as the oceans warm, they release stored CO2. The oceans aren't warming because they are releasing CO2.
 
Yes, the temperatures are rising and yes, that doesn't seem that normal and yes, we are human being and we think that we are so great that we can interfere in everything on the planet which is a lot older then we are and a lot bigger creatures then us lived here and a lot smarter races ruled before us... and NO I really do not think that we are capable of doing that much damage... and even if we are doing the damages the planet probably is just doing everything necessary to restore its natural conditions...
 
Werbung:
Yes, the temperatures are rising and yes, that doesn't seem that normal and yes, we are human being and we think that we are so great that we can interfere in everything on the planet which is a lot older then we are and a lot bigger creatures then us lived here and a lot smarter races ruled before us... and NO I really do not think that we are capable of doing that much damage... and even if we are doing the damages the planet probably is just doing everything necessary to restore its natural conditions...


In light of the earth's history of temperature ups and downs, exactly what doesn't seem normal about the temperature rising as we are exiting an ice age?
 
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