Faith in Anarchy

[dahermit]

The public school system is not out to make a profit (as I understand it.) The superintendent is elected by voters, and is obviously a political position. In a company however, those elected to the board are tasked to make a profit, and when they do not do it they are removed. If the school leaders do not do a good job, they can be voted out of office. If the voters do not do this, it is not the fault of the system, it is the fault of the voter.

I brought up education as an example of a failed system due to organizational politics. Note: The school board is elected, the superintendent is hired by the school board.

If you have no money and no insurance you can go to a public ER and federal law mandates that you will be treated. Certainly there are examples of bad areas, but I doubt that the situation in Detroit is the situation in most places.

The only care a non-insured, non-paying can get is acute care. That is, care that is given on the spot. It is not care for chronic conditions. They will not write prescriptions for diabetes, they will not perform an operation to replace a heart valve. They will however, put a cast on a broken bone, give you antibiotics for an infection.
If you have an ongoing problem like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, tuberculosis, that does not lend itself to a one-time action, you are screwed.
But of course, the people who claim that the poor can get their health care at an emergency room are not aware of this.

And yes, one could plant a garden in Detroit...however, it is not likely that the person planting it would ever harvest anything from it due to theft and vandalism.

 

[BigRob]

I brought up education as an example of a failed system due to organizational politics. Note: The school board is elected, the superintendent is hired by the school board.

I was under the impression some states continued to directly elect the superintendent. Perhaps that has been phased out though.

The only care a non-insured, non-paying can get is acute care. That is, care that is given on the spot. It is not care for chronic conditions. They will not write prescriptions for diabetes, they will not perform an operation to replace a heart valve. They will however, put a cast on a broken bone, give you antibiotics for an infection.
If you have an ongoing problem like diabetes, heart disease, cancer, tuberculosis, that does not lend itself to a one-time action, you are screwed.
But of course, the people who claim that the poor can get their health care at an emergency room are not aware of this.

I am aware of that point, but it is still better than nothing would you not say? Given the price tag of that system and the price tag of the system that is being debated, I would stick with the one we have.

Also, insurance (at least in some form) is really not all that expensive.

And yes, one could plant a garden in Detroit...however, it is not likely that the person planting it would ever harvest anything from it due to theft and vandalism.

Sounds like you ought to talk to the Mayor then.

 

[top gun]

I did a quick Wikipedia search and it said, "Robber baron is a term that revived in the 19th century in the United States as a reference to businessmen and bankers who dominated their respective industries and amassed huge personal fortunes, typically as a direct result of pursuing various anti-competitive or unfair business practices."

That said, I am all for competition in the market place, but I have no problem with a company becoming a monopoly, assuming they are able to do it legally.

I can also agree that we ought not be going back to the times of child labor and getting paid pennies a day. What I am totally against however, is the idea that being born entitles anyone to anything.

In terms of greed, it is greed that really drives innovation in my view. People go out and create something so that they can sell it and make money. If you did not want to make money, odd are slim that you would go out and create something.

I think the point is (and what dahermit was referring to) is that for all the love we have in saying we're capitalists... go capitalism. The fact is history proves beyond one single shadow of a doubt that complete and utter capitalism is a very bad thing indeed.

A country becomes one of nobles and serfs with a 100% unregulated capitalist system. Hence the Robber Barrons comparison.

The public school system is not out to make a profit (as I understand it.) The superintendent is elected by voters, and is obviously a political position. In a company however, those elected to the board are tasked to make a profit, and when they do not do it they are removed. If the school leaders do not do a good job, they can be voted out of office. If the voters do not do this, it is not the fault of the system, it is the fault of the voter.

Speaking as someone who's ran School Board campaigns for several members and was appointed to hold a vacated position for the remainder of a term I can tell you the way it works is... the School Board is elected. The superintendent is hired and given a contract by the School Board.

But you bring up a good point about voting people in or out. There are two things here test scores and school budgets. Test scores often vary due to of school make up. Budgets are much more set. One thing that happens is that too much new stuff is brought in. And the problem with that is the school system doesn't sell a product that they can raise the price on so it becomes a taxpayer burden.

Funny sidebar: You should have been at the board meeting and watched me wig out when on a tight budget they tried to bring in varsity bowling... VARSITY BOWLING!!!

 

[BigRob]

I think the point is (and what dahermit was referring to) is that for all the love we have in saying we're capitalists... go capitalism. The fact is history proves beyond one single shadow of a doubt that complete and utter capitalism is a very bad thing indeed.

A country becomes one of nobles and serfs with a 100% unregulated capitalist system. Hence the Robber Barrons comparison.

I can buy that capitalism ought to be regulated to a small degree. I think that we often want to take that regulation to the extreme however, to the detriment of us all.

Speaking as someone who's ran School Board campaigns for several members and was appointed to hold a vacated position for the remainder of a term I can tell you the way it works is... the School Board is elected. The superintendent is hired and given a contract by the School Board.

But you bring up a good point about voting people in or out. There are two things here test scores and school budgets. Test scores often vary due to of school make up. Budgets are much more set. One thing that happens is that too much new stuff is brought in. And the problem with that is the school system doesn't sell a product that they can raise the price on so it becomes a taxpayer burden.

Funny sidebar: You should have been at the board meeting and watched me wig out when on a tight budget they tried to bring in varsity bowling... VARSITY BOWLING!!!

Why is it that often private schools (with less money) are often able to provide a better education, or better for the money, than a public one?

Also, don't knock bowling. Granted it is not as needed as baseball is.

 

[dahermit]

Why is it that often private schools (with less money) are often able to provide a better education, or better for the money, than a public one?

Hillsdale County Michigan has the highest number of Charter Schools outside of Detroit. It also has the Hillsdale Academy, a private school run by Hillsdale College (a well known Conservative college).

Hillsdale Academy has an outstanding record of student success. One of the obvious reasons for their success is that they are very selective in allowing which students actual are allowed to enter via interview of the parents. They only choose students who have a demonstrated ability to succeed. In other words, they choose live rounds, turn down the duds. The duds then have no choice but to go to Hillsdale Community Public Schools.

The Charter Schools must take applicants without the consideration of showing potential for success. However, those parents who do not want their children to go to the public school system in Hillsdale, are generally the ones who are concerned about having their children have a good education and do not want their kids in the negative environment of a failed school system. Parents who care about education usually have kids that reflect that priority. Thus, more of the "live rounds" (students and parents) leave the system, leaving the "duds" in the public schools.

The parents of the "duds" care not about education, have priorities around social activities, becoming a cheer leader, playing sports, school dances, etc. The Hillsdale Community School System is a prime example of why public schools do so badly and Charter/Private schools do so well...Public schools are left with mostly "duds", parents and students.

Note: I was a teacher in the Hillsdale system from 1986 to 2004. Students would go into the restrooms, dump into the toilets and not flush them. Other students though it was funny to continue to dump into the same toilets without flushing until they plugged. The clueless administration (fools that they were), installed self flushing toilets. The rational was: This would keep the students from doing what they were doing. Of course, the students just began to dump next to the toilets instead of into them.
When I first started at Hillsdale, I made the comment to the other teachers that, "The only difference between our students and monkeys is that monkeys s... on the floor." I was told that, "no", there had been several instances where students had sneaked into a classroom and s... on the floor, and in on instance on top of a teacher's desk.

There were many instances of vandalism in the school, usually not reported to the higher ups, or police, by the administration. They did not want the public to know how bad it was. There were two instances where a Woman English teacher found the side of her new van burned from paper towels being inserted into the gas tank and set afire. Evidently the "duds" thought that it would cause the gas tank to explode (no oxygen in the tank, the towels just burned).

What was the question again? Why do private schools do better than Public Schools? Why do you think?

 

[BigRob]

Hillsdale County Michigan has the highest number of Charter Schools outside of Detroit. It also has the Hillsdale Academy, a private school run by Hillsdale College (a well known Conservative college).

Hillsdale Academy has an outstanding record of student success. One of the obvious reasons for their success is that they are very selective in allowing which students actual are allowed to enter via interview of the parents. They only choose students who have a demonstrated ability to succeed. In other words, they choose live rounds, turn down the duds. The duds then have no choice but to go to Hillsdale Community Public Schools.

The Charter Schools must take applicants without the consideration of showing potential for success. However, those parents who do not want their children to go to the public school system in Hillsdale, are generally the ones who are concerned about having their children have a good education and do not want their kids in the negative environment of a failed school system. Parents who care about education usually have kids that reflect that priority. Thus, more of the "live rounds" (students and parents) leave the system, leaving the "duds" in the public schools.

The parents of the "duds" care not about education, have priorities around social activities, becoming a cheer leader, playing sports, school dances, etc. The Hillsdale Community School System is a prime example of why public schools do so badly and Charter/Private schools do so well...Public schools are left with mostly "duds", parents and students.

Note: I was a teacher in the Hillsdale system from 1986 to 2004. Students would go into the restrooms, dump into the toilets and not flush them. Other students though it was funny to continue to dump into the same toilets without flushing until they plugged. The clueless administration (fools that they were), installed self flushing toilets. The rational was: This would keep the students from doing what they were doing. Of course, the students just began to dump next to the toilets instead of into them.
When I first started at Hillsdale, I made the comment to the other teachers that, "The only difference between our students and monkeys is that monkeys s... on the floor." I was told that, "no", there had been several instances where students had sneaked into a classroom and s... on the floor, and in on instance on top of a teacher's desk.

There were many instances of vandalism in the school, usually not reported to the higher ups, or police, by the administration. They did not want the public to know how bad it was. There were two instances where a Woman English teacher found the side of her new van burned from paper towels being inserted into the gas tank and set afire. Evidently the "duds" thought that it would cause the gas tank to explode (no oxygen in the tank, the towels just burned).

What was the question again? Why do private schools do better than Public Schools? Why do you think?

So if we have established that more money is not going to make a change, can we stop throwing money at the public school system?

From your story it almost sounds like me like you all had just given up. Why not report vandalism and whatnot to the police? Letting it go does no one any good.

I do not mean this personally against you, but maybe that system could be turned around if teachers started making kids take responsibility for their actions. I went to a Jesuit school so I may be just way off base with this one as the environment you described what really nothing like what I experienced.

 

[dahermit]

So if we have established that more money is not going to make a change, can we stop throwing money at the public school system?

What money is being thrown at the public school system? In good economic times, there was barely enough to pay for supplies. In bad times, there was even less. The government food in the lunch program was enough to gag a buzzard. In Michigan prisons the hamburger is 100% beef. In the government school lunch system it is 80% beef, 20% soybean meal...have you ever tasted one of those? Well, at least it looks like meat.

From your story it almost sounds like me like you all had just given up. Why not report vandalism and whatnot to the police? Letting it go does no one any good.

I do not mean this personally against you, but maybe that system could be turned around if teachers started making kids take responsibility for their actions.

The teachers have no power. A student could call a teacher a M....F....ing pig, and after being sent to the office, they would still be there the next day. The priority was to keep as many kids in school as possible so that the district would not lose the money for them from the state. In the years I was there, no student was even close to being expelled. If a teacher called police on their own, they would be sanctioned for not going through the "chain of command", and the teacher would be on the administration's s... list for bringing bad publicity to the school.
And by the way, when a teacher did report an incident to the police, the police told the teacher that "...what goes on inside the school is the school's problem." Teacher gets reputation by administration for being, "...a loose cannon...". Teacher remembers who hires, fires, and that there is no longer protection of tenure in Michigan.

In short, the administrators, once they leave teaching, are then politicians who are seeking to advance their careers. First step; Assistant Principal. Mission: Appear to do the job of disciplinarian without offending the parents and negative attention. After two years apply in another district for Job of Principal. Second step; Principal. Mission: Keep the parents happy, intervene on behalf of the parents often siding with the students against the teachers. Conduct meetings wherein you use the appropriate educational jargon. Always appear enthusiastic. Step three; Apply for a job as Assistant Superintendent in another district. Mission: (This is an easier job, you are not in a position to make parents mad, it is mainly about being the primary financial officer.) Come in each day, go over the books, sign approval for different projects. Step Four; Superintendent. Mission: (This is where the "big bucks" are.), Figure head, delegate responsibilities to Principals of the schools. S...flows downhill. Any parents contact you personally, you appear to take their side, say "...will look into it..." pressure the Principal to correct the problem (teacher). Smile a lot, use even more of the educational jargon, especially to the school board. Hidden agenda: Get a couple of years experience, Begin applying at larger school districts...they pay their Superintendents more.
That is the structure. Most Assistant Principals and Principals are only in that position for two years or less before they move up. Likewise, the Assistant Superintendents and Superintendants...two years and move on up.
The school boards get their information from the administrators...with the appropriate filters. The school board members do not have a clue. What they are told by the administrators (politicians), has no bearing on what is actually going on. And being human, they believe anything they are told.
I would not have my kid in the Hillsdale system...I would home school.

 

[Dante the Marxist]

We should all start a revolution and try to build a new type of society. Why not have a government that move towards anarchy, or a world that relies on God's law and his ramifications and rewards. Putting the power in the hands of the people is essential to uniting a country. Giving people equality of wealth, or setting a wealthy minimum should also be a priority. Ultimately we would seek to abrogate money but first we would use money to motivate people and get people off the streets and out of jails, using it as an incentive for completing programs. We would also gain a surplus of money by ending war. We would end war by using an average citizen with faith in God, not religion. We would get him to make speeches about liberation, freedom and democracy. He would make a stand and restore value to government. Immedietely without hesitation he would end war and our country would dedicate itself only to helping other countries through peaceful means.

This is the solution. I am not a polititan, so I don't know how to implement it without all you knowledgable people.

I hope you all understand this plan. I have trouble explaining it well, so it is ok if you misunderstand me and I will do my best to clarify.

Peace,

Irishone21

I would give you full support, but this thing just reeks of religioun, and I cannot find that acceptable in any way.

 

[Dante the Marxist]

This is a load of garbage. War will never end, conflict is part of human nature. Further, your plan for "equality of wealth" screams of communism, how has that worked for anyone in the world?

Also, the amount of money we spend on war is not going to cover the cost of domestic social programs, so ending war will not result in a surplus.

What is so awful about communism? Most people dont know what it even means, and just throw it around as an insult. This ignorance is what got me into communism, cause I wanted to know what the hell that idealology was, and searched about.