Faith-Based Evolution?

The desperation of christian 'logic'.

Why don't you go the thread I started about the desperation of christian logic and see if you can answer my points.

Until then you might want to stop denegrating the fact of evolution.

You are in a glass house. Stop throwing stones

I am not a christian, I am just someone who cant possibly have faith in something like evolution. If all of my questions could be addressed and proven then possibly I could but they cant. and I cant muster the faith it takes to buy into it.
 
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First, that article was a total farce. Darwin and Evolution are scientist and scientific theory - not any divine belief system. To come to some stained wall, like the peasants of Mexico come to some vague, stained image of the Virgin Mary on a wall, is ridiculous.

However believing in evolution does not require faith, it simply requires an understanding of scientific evidence. A recent book entitled "Before the Dawn" by Nicholas Wade does an excellent job of using genetic information to trace the evolution of mankind. A myriad of other scientific magazines have laid out irrefutable proof that evolution is an accurate scientific hypothesis.

Twenty years ago you could credibly deny that evolution was the mechanism that resulted in the existence of man today. But today you must bury your head in the sand to not to accept the fact that evolution is the mechanism for man's existence.

I suppose there is some comfort to Christians if you want to believe that evolution was the mechanism used by God to create mankind. But to deny that all life on earth today exists because of evolution is like denying that the earth is round... years ago you could be excused for your ignorance, but not today.


Again I am not a Christian so it’s not about that. its long and complicated why I think its just stupid, the random chance of it all just takes more faith than I have, I know you don’t think it takes faith but it does, where ever all the answers are not there you must have faith in those gaps that they link back to your original belief. I just don’t, and I have no faith or trust in almost any of the scientists who push it any more than I would trust a RC Priest to tell me his version of the beginning.

I have no problem with knowing all dogs came from wolves, I understand and accept that sort of evolution within species. But sorry I cant buy there was two particles that banged together and made a universe then pond scum decided to become a million different varieties of species.

But I have no issues with other people believing it. I think it’s strange but it’s not my business if someone else believes we came from pond scum. I think it’s weird that in the time some species evolved quite a bit others like the Sturgeon did not evolve at all.

It’s strange that someone saying I don’t buy into this makes others so completely mad. Why is that?
 
The difficulties you describe are just a result of your lack of understanding of the fact of evolution.

Evolution does not imply that all species must change.

If a species arrives at an incarnation that suits its environment well and that environment does not change much (like the sea for sharks) and there is no random mutation then there is no benefit to change and no opporutinty to change.

In fact many species have paid the price for not evolving by becoming extinct.

You might find it easier to accept that we originallly came from the primordial soup if you accept two facts.

One is that each individual change from that to us was very small and the other is that it happened in geological time which is to say hundreds of millions of years.

I know the bible indicates the world is around 10,000 years old which is insufficient time for species to evolve significantly but that just shows you how ridiculous the bible is.
 
The difficulties you describe are just a result of your lack of understanding of the fact of evolution.

Evolution does not imply that all species must change.

If a species arrives at an incarnation that suits its environment well and that environment does not change much (like the sea for sharks) and there is no random mutation then there is no benefit to change and no opporutinty to change.

In fact many species have paid the price for not evolving by becoming extinct.

You might find it easier to accept that we originallly came from the primordial soup if you accept two facts.

One is that each individual change from that to us was very small and the other is that it happened in geological time which is to say hundreds of millions of years.

I know the bible indicates the world is around 10,000 years old which is insufficient time for species to evolve significantly but that just shows you how ridiculous the bible is.

do you believe that things randomly evolved from primordial soup?
 
I just saw your post about needing evolution to answer all your questions and that you can't 'muster' the faith to believe in it.

First of all the fact of evolution does not pretend to answer all questions, merely the origin of species and the reasons some are successful and others not.

Secondly you don't need faith as there is a ton of evidence. Faith is what you need when there isn't any. Like with religion.

But you have articulated most eloquently the reason why people believe the nonesense of religion.

It is because they prefer a made up answer over an unanswered question and they have perfected the art of self delusion so that made up answer satisfies them.

It is so sad that those who have been lucky enough to benefit from a western education are still happier with made up nonesensical answers than with the pursuit of truth.
 
Oh dear.

Now you are saying the chances of it happening are small.

I understand your problem here because humans have difficulty in dealing with huige numbers and especially tiny probabilities because our understanding is conditioned by the short duration of our life.

But with enough examples the tiniest possibility becomes an inevitability.

Let me give you an example.

You cross the road without thinking about it because the odds of being knocked down are about 50,000 to one and in 70 years this means very little chance of being hit.

But if you lived to be 500,000 crossing the road would equal certain death.

So although the probability is small the timescales are huge.

Next
 
Oh dear.

Now you are saying the chances of it happening are small.

I understand your problem here because humans have difficulty in dealing with huige numbers and especially tiny probabilities because our understanding is conditioned by the short duration of our life.

But with enough examples the tiniest possibility becomes an inevitability.

Let me give you an example.

You cross the road without thinking about it because the odds of being knocked down are about 50,000 to one and in 70 years this means very little chance of being hit.

But if you lived to be 500,000 crossing the road would equal certain death.

So although the probability is small the timescales are huge.

Next

I don’t think that is a very good example.

The pond scum would have to make two new species close enough to eachother physically to find eachother and then also close enough genetically to be able to produce offspring. What are the mathematical chances of that happening? Even for one life form.
 
Well, assuming you are right (which you aren't) it does not matter how small the probablity is.

I tried to explain that to you and your response was 'I don't think that is a very good example' which is rank ingratitude if you ask me.

Anyway, you need to understand that there is only 2% difference in our genetic make up and that of a carrot so the idea of a single species ancestor is not remotely difficult to accept.

And there would not need to be two.

There are plenty of species that are hermaphrodite for example
 
To be honest I think that your problem with evolution stems from your poor understanding of it.

Do you remember a few years ago when christians thought they had a perfect gotcha for evolutionists when they said there are no half/man half apes walking around as there would be if man evolved from the ape.

That was just a demonstration of total ignorance of the fact of evolution.

Once you come to understand it it is far more beautiful than anything in the bible.

Try reading the Selfish Gene by Richard Dawkins.

It is a stunning explantion of the process of natural selection.
 
First, that article was a total farce. Darwin and Evolution are scientist and scientific theory - not any divine belief system. To come to some stained wall, like the peasants of Mexico come to some vague, stained image of the Virgin Mary on a wall, is ridiculous.

Congratulations, hobo. (AND welcome, I see you're new here...) You were the first to point out that the article is farcical.

However believing in evolution does not require faith, it simply requires an understanding of scientific evidence. A recent book entitled "Before the Dawn" by Nicholas Wade does an excellent job of using genetic information to trace the evolution of mankind. A myriad of other scientific magazines have laid out irrefutable proof that evolution is an accurate scientific hypothesis.

In fact, I believe that evolution is not necessarily a false concept. One of the things that jumps out at me is that most writings I've viewed utilize "might", "possibly", "could" etc. a great deal. So while those, like yourself, who are totally sold out on the evolutionary mindset, feel that it does not require faith, I perceive that it does. There are points in the hypothesis that simply don't connect, and the "mays" and "mights" have to be included. It is irrefutable proof only to those who already accept it without question.

Twenty years ago you could credibly deny that evolution was the mechanism that resulted in the existence of man today. But today you must bury your head in the sand to not to accept the fact that evolution is the mechanism for man's existence.

Again, this is simply not true. There are plenty of very well educated, very intelligent scientists who ascribe to ID. Many feel that there is validity in some respects of evolution. You are the one with your head in the sand to deny any validity to their views.

I suppose there is some comfort to Christians if you want to believe that evolution was the mechanism used by God to create mankind. But to deny that all life on earth today exists because of evolution is like denying that the earth is round... years ago you could be excused for your ignorance, but not today.

As a Christian, how and what mechanisms God did or did not use is irrelevant. And certainly no comfort. That is not where any comfort I need stems from.

Most of the arguments against ID and for evolution remind me of the old saying, 'thou dost protest too much'. For many, the tactic is to denigrate those of opposing view. It smacks of having to beat up on the other guy to make yourself feel good.
 
Yes, that beautifully consistent scientific hypothesis of evolution subsequently backed up with a wealth of evidence is rubbish.

A beardy guy in the sky made it all.

We know this to be an unassailable truth because it says so in a book with other axiomatic truths such as talking snakes in it.

So now that it is proven that god did it can we just drop all this mumbo jumbo superstitious talk about evolution?

Cuh
 
In fact, I believe that evolution is not necessarily a false concept. One of the things that jumps out at me is that most writings I've viewed utilize "might", "possibly", "could" etc. a great deal. So while those, like yourself, who are totally sold out on the evolutionary mindset, feel that it does not require faith, I perceive that it does. There are points in the hypothesis that simply don't connect, and the "mays" and "mights" have to be included. It is irrefutable proof only to those who already accept it without question.

Again, this is simply not true. There are plenty of very well educated, very intelligent scientists who ascribe to ID. Many feel that there is validity in some respects of evolution. You are the one with your head in the sand to deny any validity to their views.

As a Christian, how and what mechanisms God did or did not use is irrelevant. And certainly no comfort. That is not where any comfort I need stems from.

Most of the arguments against ID and for evolution remind me of the old saying, 'thou dost protest too much'. For many, the tactic is to denigrate those of opposing view. It smacks of having to beat up on the other guy to make yourself feel good.

Thanks for the welcome Truth....
Let clear up a few things that you seem to have problems with. First, evolution is an explanation of how species developed into what we see today - it is NOT an explanation of how life was created in the first place. A lot of scientists has some quasi-plausible explanations how life started from nothing, but the proof of this is far less extensive than the scientific explanation of how life changed and evolved once it was formed.

I believe your argument that the theory of evolution is filled with "could have, should have, would haves" simply is no longer true. Evolution is a rapidly evolving field and you really must make a point of reading the recent scientific literature to understand how far the theory had evolved into indisputable fact. The focus right now is on what path evolution took to produce a certain species - not on whether evolution is true or not.

As far as scientists believing in ID (intelligent design) - that is one possible explanation of why evolution moved in the way it did. You can say that it was God's hand that guided the path of evolution. No one can prove that change happened simply by chance, by ID, or with God's help. It is absolutely clear, however, that all animals have changed in response changing circumstances. It is also clear that genes do mutate on a regular basis, and the species with the best combination of genes will survive. It is up to you whether you want to believe this happened by chance, by ID, or God. The mechanism is clear... only the philosophical question of "why does anything happen" remains unanswered.

As far as my tone of certainty in my argument, perhaps it is because so much hard evidence has been developed fairly recently that place evolution into the category of known scientific fact. I spend most of my time in Indonesia and I can see the physical differences among human species. For example, genetic scientists can point to the exact gene which makes humans lactose tolerant (they drink milk). This gene developed in humans 5000 years ago in Europe.

Four years ago I had a son who is of mixed blood - half Indonesian, half American. All the native babies stop drinking milk after they are weaned from their mother's milk. The stores don't sell milk; nobody drinks milk, eat cheese, or any other milk product. My son continues to LOTS of milk - just like an American kid would drink milk. He demands it and I must go to a special store to buy fresh milk imported from New Zealand. My son has genes from me that make him different from other kids. People in a tropical environment don't need milk to get their calcium and other minerals and vitamins - a wide variety of other food is readily available year-round. European needed milk during the winter when fresh fruits and vegetables were not available.

I see these genetic differences every day. Local three-year-old kids can hit a dog on the run with a stone - my son can barely get a stone airborne. There can be no other explanation for these differences other than generic differences which have evolved from different groups of people living in different places and adapting to their environment.

You simply cannot deny evolution based on the argument that insufficient proof exists to support the concept. Evolution is as much a accepted scientific fact as other scientific facts such as gravity and the speed of light.
 
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You should read my tread on the desperation of christian logic.

Here is the short version

1) Everything has a cause but this cannot regress infintely so therefore god.

2) You can't prove god doesn't exist so he does.

The first argument goes from a premiss that is wrong to a conclusion that does not follow and the second is absurd.
 
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