Ending Poverty in America

[PLC1]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

I think he is talking about all the schools in the state, included middle and grammar and whatnot as opposed to only high schools.

So 90% of the high school could have scored in the top 50% of all the schools in the state. Of course it makes one wonder why 10% of the lower level schools scored higher than the high schools...

Yes, it does, and it raises the question of just how the high schools could do so well while the elementary schools were doing so badly. If they have a real way to bring high schoolers up so dramatically, then the rest of the country needs to be copying what they do.

 

[BigRob]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Yes, it does, and it raises the question of just how the high schools could do so well while the elementary schools were doing so badly. If they have a real way to bring high schoolers up so dramatically, then the rest of the country needs to be copying what they do.

Ha yes indeed. Of course where I grew up (Louisiana) the public education system was not even worth going to. I was lucky enough to go to private school my whole life. I remember the test we all had to take to graduate 8th grade (a state requirement). It amounted to 5th grade level questions, but many public school people failed.

 

[PLC1]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Ha yes indeed. Of course where I grew up (Louisiana) the public education system was not even worth going to. I was lucky enough to go to private school my whole life. I remember the test we all had to take to graduate 8th grade (a state requirement). It amounted to 5th grade level questions, but many public school people failed.

That is sad, and a bit scary when you think of the stakes involved in having a semi literate populace, and the fact that many children have no choice other than public schools.

Isn't Louisiana also near the bottom when it comes to funding schools?

 

[BigRob]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

That is sad, and a bit scary when you think of the stakes involved in having a semi literate populace, and the fact that many children have no choice other than public schools.

Isn't Louisiana also near the bottom when it comes to funding schools?

I am not sure to be honest, I know the public school system when I was there always ranked about last in the country in most categories. I left the state.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

New Tax Brackets:

@ $52 = 0 <--You pay no income tax
$52 - $75k = 25%
$76 - $100k = 50%
$101 - $200k = 75%
$200k - $1mil = 90%
Above $1 mil = 95%
No more poverty, the rich are finally paying their fair share, the economy is booming and everyone is happy!

Why stop at 95%?

there are some countries who have as their highest tax rate a rate that is higher than 100%.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The opening post presents a harsh reality: poverty exists.

The question is whether it is "our" collective responsibility to do something about it.

I believe the game is rigged and, rather than rescue individuals within the current game and its rules, we should do something about the game itself.

I for one am tired of "the man who runs it all gets the most money". I have no aptitude, education, desire, etc. to run a company. I provide other benefits deemed by the system's hierarchical structure to be less monetarily valuable.

I could go against my nature, and be thereby understandably miserable, and strive to run a company. But I, by the grace of God, choose to be me instead.

Nevertheless, I ask why things are the way they are.

It's like we're still in caveman days, with dog-eat-dog, neurotic competition for seemingly scarce resources wherein the process there is more suffering than happiness.

I wish we had a system where everyone could be themselves, work their calling, and, as the opening post suggests, not suffer economic discrimination.

But, we can't. We have an old system that incorporates an ancient hierarchy ladder and dysfunctional survival of the fittest maxims, a long useless system of by and for dominant bull males that does nothing for normal modern men, most women and all children.

Wow, talk about a system that can't let go of the past and is thereby doomed to repeat its horrors! No wonder so many people suffer poverty's decay, because that's what happens when you're thwarted by the game itself.

I'd like to see us change the system and move forward, so that the system can keep up with our neuropsychological evolution. Right now, we as a race (especially women) are miles ahead of the current system. No wonder we're so miserable -- the system keeps dragging us backwards.

Progress requires changing systems of socioeconomics to keep up with human evolution, so that no one suffers needlessly at the hands of the socioeconomic system itself.

We all need to progress soon.

Or we'll all likely die from decadence.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The opening post presents a harsh reality: poverty exists.

Yes it does and I hope with you that it's existence will motivate people to do something about it. What have you done lately?

The question is whether it is "our" collective responsibility to do something about it.

Clearly something must be done about it but by no means should that something create another situation that is wrong. You can give to the needy and you can take an active interest in a needy person and help him up on his feet. What you cannot do is force your neighbor to do what you think is best and still claim them moral high ground. Coercion to make people help is an evil just as injustice is.

I believe the game is rigged and, rather than rescue individuals within the current game and its rules, we should do something about the game itself.

You can do both. Don't let anything stop you from rescuing people - that is wrong. And yes the game is rigged in some sense. The wrongdoing that one man perpetrates upon another and holds him down is wrong. The role of government is to stop people from doing harm to each other. This is the reason for laws. If the laws are not working then by all means let's change them. What we cannot do is make laws to steal from one man to help another. We cannot force a man to be good to his neighbor. But we can influence him to be kind. We can motivate him to help. We can be an inspiration for good. This has been proven time and time again. There is a 100% certainty that we ourselves can make the choice for ourselves to do what is right and there is a high certainty that we can influence others to do the same - I have done it and so can you. This is a far more powerful force than involuntary redistribution of wealth. So what is stopping you?

I for one am tired of "the man who runs it all gets the most money". I have no aptitude, education, desire, etc. to run a company. I provide other benefits deemed by the system's hierarchical structure to be less monetarily valuable.

That is your choice. If your choices lead you to have less than another it is not right to blame the other person for the results. In america we are supposed to have an equal opportunity to pursue happiness but there is no guarantee of equal results. If someone is holding you back through some wrong doing then by all means they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law and their injustice should be stopped. But if they are doing everything morally right and they are just harder working or lucky then that is not the place of government to change it.

I could go against my nature, and be thereby understandably miserable, and strive to run a company. But I, by the grace of God, choose to be me instead.

There are more ways to happiness than just running a company. Many people are happy without running companies. And if we look just at a small aspect of happiness - having the money to do what one wants in life (not that money determines happiness but some will make this about money so I will talk about it now), then many have become wealthy without running a company. In fact, an old maxim about wealth is to do what you love and the money will follow.
Nevertheless, I ask why things are the way they are.

I wish we had a system where everyone could be themselves, work their calling, and, as the opening post suggests, not suffer economic discrimination.

We do. You can make whatever choice you want to about life and career and the rewards that will come from those choices.

But, we can't. We have an old system that incorporates an ancient hierarchy ladder and dysfunctional survival of the fittest maxims, a long useless system of by and for dominant bull males that does nothing for normal modern men, most women and all children.

I am sorry that you are so misguided. Perhaps that is why you are either unhappy or unwealthy.

Wow, talk about a system that can't let go of the past and is thereby doomed to repeat its horrors! No wonder so many people suffer poverty's decay, because that's what happens when you're thwarted by the game itself.

The standard of living in the States now is higher than in anywhere else in the world and higher than in any other time in the history of the world. Everyone of us is rich compared to even kings of just a few hundred years ago. The poverty we have today is relatively good compared to long ago but relatively bad compared to what others have now. so let's be grateful for how it is good and let us strive to make it better for what it is not.

I'd like to see us change the system and move forward, so that the system can keep up with our neuropsychological evolution. Right now, we as a race (especially women) are miles ahead of the current system. No wonder we're so miserable -- the system keeps dragging us backwards.

Most people are not miserable. Some people have even learned to be content in all situations. But yes changes are needed. the first and only change that is needed is for government to enforce laws against harming your neighbor. And if they can't even do that well then they have no business in getting involved in more of our lives.

Progress requires changing systems of socioeconomics to keep up with human evolution, so that no one suffers needlessly at the hands of the socioeconomic system itself.

The economic system is fine. It is the greed in mens hearts that is not fine and no government can do anything about that. You can control your own heart. And you can try your best to help you neighbor. And government can arrest people who are not in control. But the economic system cannot change that.

We all need to progress soon.

Or we'll all likely die from decadence.

Is this what you meant to say? After all decadence is usually considered to be the result of indulgence. So if we are all indulging ourselves then who is in need of more?

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The economic system is fine. It is the greed in mens hearts that is not fine and no government can do anything about that. You can control your own heart. And you can try your best to help you neighbor. And government can arrest people who are not in control. But the economic system cannot change that.

Dr. Who, your position is clear: our socioeconomic system is essentially sound, if people are suffering economically it's essentially their own fault, the vast majority of problems within the system are not caused by intrinsic systemic failings but are caused by individual human failing, and government should keep their hands off the socioeconomic system and deal sparingly with human failing.

I find your ubiquitous servant perspective blindly idealistic ... and I can't help but wonder if it's codependently employed to cope with your captivity and placate the Wicked-Witch-of-the-West Money System to treat you with favor.

Reality remains, that the system is decadent and is itself the cause of all our economic problems and related suffering ...

... That the love of money is the root of all evil and is alive and well in the foundational tenets of the Money System having been codified into the system's machinery long ago by those who loved money more than life itself ...

... That the system by its nature overwhelms via the threat of premature demise to compel even the strong to comply with its request to treat others badly in so many ways ...

... That greed is a fear-based reaction in the mind and soul but is not of the heart ...

... That poverty is an intrinsic tenet of the Money System and not a moral failing of its victims ...

... That people are not intrinsically flawed/evil but are foundationally sound/good ...

... That people evolve and outgrow ancient systems and that remaining in systems that we've outgrown is painful much like remaining in shoes that are way too small ...

... And that it's high time someone threw a bucket of water on the Money System and liquidate it along with its control forms of capitalism, socialism, communism and other idiosyncratic combinations of the three.

When that day comes, even the Winkies will cheer, despite the fact they'll suffer some disorientation as they adapt to becoming truly independent, healthily interdependent and cooperatively self-sufficient in a new and healthy socioeconomic system designed to fit those who are alive today not the long-ago Neanderthalian deceased.

Hopefully that day will come soon, as the hourglass is running low of time we have left until the Money System makes good on its Armageddon prophecy to terminate us all with an evil nuclear spell.

You can be a Winkie if you wish, consenting unto death ...

... But I'd rather be a Dorothy, and truly fight for my freedom.

 

[Dr.Who]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Dr. Who, your position is clear: our socioeconomic system is essentially sound, if people are suffering economically it's essentially their own fault, the vast majority of problems within the system are not caused by intrinsic systemic failings but are caused by individual human failing, and government should keep their hands off the socioeconomic system and deal sparingly with human failing.

There are people who make the choices that result in their own poverty. But it would be narrow to think that all economic suffering is the result of one's own choices. Sometimes it is the result of events beyond one's own control such as illness or war.

Any remedy that does not understand that it could be both the result of bad choices and bad circumstances will not be complete. Regardless the solution is and always has been first for individuals to step up and help their neighbors. Second it is for government to stop people from harming each other and to create a system which puts everyone on a level playing field at the start based on the God given equality of all men.

In theory a communist system or a socialist system or a capitalist system could establish justice for all. But in practice none of them has done it yet. However, the only one that recognizes human greed and accounts for it is capitalism. They all fall if the human evil is too great but in capitalism the greed of one man is set against the greed of another to be a check and a balance. Capitalism best accounts for human evil.

Beyond the economic system in play people still effect the lives of their neighbors more than the whether or not theylive in a communist state or a capitalistic state. If you want to fix the problem the best place to start is with the actions of people. The government's role is to stop people from harming each other but it is not to determine every step a man takes. In the absence of any clear harm the government makes things worse when it tries to regulate morality. Hence the separation of church and state as a loose principle that helps to guide our capitalism. A free church, a free populace, a loosely separate state, combined with capitalism and even a modicum of human goodness is unbeatable.

I find your ubiquitous servant perspective blindly idealistic ... and I can't help but wonder if it's codependently employed to cope with your captivity and placate the Wicked-Witch-of-the-West Money System to treat you with favor.
[]

... And that it's high time someone threw a bucket of water on the Money System and liquidate it along with its control forms of capitalism, socialism, communism and other idiosyncratic combinations of the three.

You think I am idealistic because I think think that the best and first remedy for human suffering is for humans to help each other (while I admit the need for some limited government intervention) but your solution is to reject all monetary systems. I think you are much more idealistic and that rejecting all monetary systems could never work in a million trillion years.

 

[CONSERVERATIVETOO]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The SCARY PART about this WARPED THINKING is that it seems millions of Americans approve. Barack Obama has discovered this and has wide support. What this EXTREME SOCIALIST idea means is AMERICA would be destroyed. AMERICA would become a SOCIALIST -MARXIST nation VOID of all desire for one to strive for success. OBAMA WILL ENACT this far - left Radical Program and has said so. How did America arrive at this low point? Well, since 1933 America has slowly been trained to TAKE from their fellow citizens who are succesful and use their money to live on . F.D.R. started many socialistic programs, mild compared to todays radical left offerings , from the seeds of these programs have come the CONFISCATION of a CITIZENS PROPERTY . This LOOT then is GIVEN to another . The "ANOTHER" is decided by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. Thus the "receiver" becomes obligated to the LEFTIST FEDERAL GOVERNMENT and VOTES acccordingly. 2008 has become the NO TURNBACK point ,we have a CHOICE as a nation to make ,Do we return to SANITY or do we become a TOTAL RADCAL SOCIALIST MARXIST NATION? IT is UP to YOU!! Do you VOTE for OBAMA a radical SOCIALIST with MARXIST leanings OR do YOU vote for JOHN McCAIN ? It seems an easy choice if you LOVE AMERICA , JOHN McCAIN is without a doubt GREAT for AMERICA. BUT- My CITIZENS many of your have fallen into the SNAKES DEN, He has drugged YOU with GREED . YOU ENVY others who have MORE than you despite the fact MANY of them grew WITHIN the AMERICAN DREAM SYSTEM.YES< OBAMA promises to CONFISCATE their PROPERTY andGIVE it to YOU IF HE LIKES YOU!!!IS this the AMERICA YOU DESIRE? I DO NOT THINK SO!! SO THINK!!!AMERICA'S FUTURE DEPENDS upon YOUR CHOICE, The PATRIOT OR THE SNAKE!!! - I know I speak very CLEARLY about OUR CHOICE but AMERICA stands in DANGER of LOSING its HERITAGE!! THINK!!

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Fear can compel us to cling conservatively trembling to the mommy past.

Courage is required to let go and step boldly into the unknown and walk one's own individual path.

Today in America ancient corporate elitism is holding us back from making socioeconomic progress.

Corporate elitism states that what's good for the neanderthal CEO is good for America ... despite how many expendably continue thereby to be pushed into the abyss of the bulging lower impoverished and starving class, dumped there by corporate elitism's outsourcing, off-shoring, and in-sourcing.

It is time to dispense with the corporate model of economic dog-eat-dog hierarchy and replace it with something healthy and better.

The system is the problem.

The system must be replaced.

 

[GenSeneca]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

The system is the problem.

The system must be replaced.

What do you perceive the system to be? Capitalism??

What are you suggesting as a replacement? Socialism??

I agree that the system is the problem but we probably disagree on what that system is... I blame having Socialism "mixed" into our Capitalist society as the problem and a removal of all Socialism to be the solution.

If you think you can make an intelligent case against Capitalism, please do try... But you must also name the alternative which you think is superior, or better suited, for society and be ready to defend it.

 

[Andy]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Fear can compel us to cling conservatively trembling to the mommy past.

Or... facts and compel us to cling to what is historically proven to work, over what is historically proven to fail.

Courage is required to let go and step boldly into the unknown and walk one's own individual path.

In an economic sense, this isn't 'unknown'. Socialism... an attempt to make all people equal and remove the ability of people who own companies to gain more benefit for their efforts, has been shown repeatedly to cause the worst standards of living in the modern world.

China under socialism, resulted in one of the most backward of all asian countries among the booming Asian Tigers, and caused 2/3rds of the entire population of China, to live below the poverty line, a line that's a fraction of what our poverty line is.

Today in America ancient corporate elitism is holding us back from making socioeconomic progress.

We have some of the highest standards of living in this world. Judging the socialism in other countries, we would be dooming ourselves to 3rd world status. If anything, socialism holds us back from making socioeconomic progress.

Corporate elitism states that what's good for the neanderthal CEO is good for America ... despite how many expendably continue thereby to be pushed into the abyss of the bulging lower impoverished and starving class, dumped there by corporate elitism's outsourcing, off-shoring, and in-sourcing.

Most of the products we enjoy, are because, what's good for the CEO, is good for America. For example, Ford made the Model T in order to earn more money. The result was millions of people have jobs in automobile plants, and hundreds of millions enjoy the use of their cars.

Steve Jobs, mass produced the first prebuilt user friendly computer, because he wanted to earn some major dollars. The result was the wide spread use of affordable home computers.

There is no impoverished starving class in America, in any real terms. I worked for the Mid-Ohio food bank, and at Faith Mission in down town columbus. We fed any and all who came, poor or not. If you have two feet, and the brain power to navigate to the place, you got a full size free meal.

This is a far cry from Mexico, where refrigerator boxes serve as homes, and people search trash cans for food.

It is time to dispense with the corporate model of economic dog-eat-dog hierarchy and replace it with something healthy and better.

The system is the problem.

The system must be replaced.

Removing the dog eat dog, Capitalistic free market competition results in disasters. The reason Fannie Mae made billions in bad loans was because they knew they could do do without worry, since the government would bail them out, which they did.

Prior to the 1991 economic reforms, the auto industry in India were bad, unreliable, copies of other cars produced. For example, the Hindustan auto company, based in India, built the Ambassador, a complete copy of a car made in the UK. The car, first built in the early 50s, remained for the most part, unchanged for the next 40 years. Regular complaints about poor handling, fault 'features', no new designs or changes, went completely ignored. Why should the manufacture bother to change anything, when there was no competition to deal with?

Suddenly, in 1991 when the economic reforms allowed direct foreign competition, Hindustan Motors came out with a redesigned Ambassador with improved breaks, better handling, more features, better price even.

Dog eat dog, is what we want. Safe protectionist socialism, has horrible results.

 

[Andy]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

Dr. Who, your position is clear: our socioeconomic system is essentially sound, if people are suffering economically it's essentially their own fault, the vast majority of problems within the system are not caused by intrinsic systemic failings but are caused by individual human failing, and government should keep their hands off the socioeconomic system and deal sparingly with human failing.

First, problems happen no matter the economic system employed. If your company no longer has a product to sell, and you don't gain the skills needed to get another job in the time you have, you will end up unemployed.

However, problems happen in any economy, whether it be working for $1/day in Chinese Communist farm camps, or swimming across the gulf to escape Cuba, or sitting in the forced labor, disease ridden Gulags of Soviet Russia, or being slaughtered by the 5% forced population reduction of Ho Chi Mhin.

The difference is, here in American, problems are not forced on the people by government in the same way they are in any socialist state. You can for instance, deliver pizzas, or work a fast food shop, or work construction. Every day, the paper is filled with jobs. We all have choices. We can choose to blame government for everything that's wrong, and expect them to fix it, or accept responsibility for our situation, whether we actually caused it or not.

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=OSRj7JqURjc
This video is of a man born without any limbs. No arms, no legs. If anyone can say they didn't cause the problems they face, he is it. Yet, instead of whining to government, or waiting for politicians to fix his plight, or spouting some pseudo moralistic 'root of evil' junk, he moved forward, and got a double degree in accounting and financial planning, and has a job.

I find your ubiquitous servant perspective blindly idealistic ... and I can't help but wonder if it's codependently employed to cope with your captivity and placate the Wicked-Witch-of-the-West Money System to treat you with favor.

Everyone is a servant. It just depends on who you are servant to. You can choose to be servant to a tyrannical government and work for $1 a day in Chi-com rice fields, or for free in a Soviet gulag, or you can choose to be servant to a CEO who provides work for money. Even if you are self employed, you are still servant to your customers.

Reality remains, that the system is decadent and is itself the cause of all our economic problems and related suffering ...

I can see how people are suffering with their cars, homes, food, and so on. How horrible it is compared to swimming across the gulf to escape Cuba, or fleeing Venezuela. Indeed, the lady from Laos, who ran from communist soldiers shooting at her and her family running through the woods, said she found it so much worse here in the US with her 3 story home and two car garage. I'm sure she dearly missed the free health care provided by the communist murders in Laos.

No instead, she only commented that it was sad she came here to escape Communism, and now we're making lame excuses to enact the very policies she fled from.

 

[Chip]

Re: Endind Poverty in America

What do you perceive the system to be? Capitalism??

What are you suggesting as a replacement? Socialism??

I agree that the system is the problem but we probably disagree on what that system is... I blame having Socialism "mixed" into our Capitalist society as the problem and a removal of all Socialism to be the solution.

If you think you can make an intelligent case against Capitalism, please do try... But you must also name the alternative which you think is superior, or better suited, for society and be ready to defend it.

As I stated in a recent previous post in this thread, known systems of Money System control (capitalism, communism, socialism, idiosyncractic concoctions of the three) are known and are all unacceptable, as they do nothing to alter the intrinsic flaws in the very nature of the system itself.

And, no, I do not have to name in advance the system that we will create to replace the present one.

When a present system is failing to meet changing needs as the present system has failed for millenia, we reach a point where we examine the problems and create solutions.

We then implement the solutions in a new system rather than patch the old system, especially if the old system is intrinsically flawed with regard to meeting present needs, as the current system is.

During the process of creating the new system, then it receives its initial name, which may not be its final name when implemented.

Naming a system is not as important as creating one that does the job.