Ecofascist Disasters

[Coyote]

OF COURSE Bush, McCain etc are on board the Ecofascist Express Train to Nowhere - the only people opposing it are conservatives.

Hate to break it to you. Bush is conservative. Just because he's an eff-up doesn't mean he isn't a conservative.

He sure ain't no liberal.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Libs never want to own up to the destruction they create. 28% of the corn acreage in the US, one of the worlds great grain growing regions, into ethanol, and it hasn't had an effect? Yaa, sure. The price of food in the groceries I go to are up about double in the past three years, depending on grain content.

sorry I just read your post, seems you did not address a single issue I pointed out...must not have a good one , thought I would just let it go or something.

 

[Jarlaxle]

Raising Cafe' Standards is way overdue. In Japan they boast an average of 45mpg. It's not that GM can't do it. It's that they can still sell without doing it so they're happy to sell what they already have. This is so obviously a case were regulation helps the consumer and the environment in the long run.

45MPG cars were available here. Guess what? NOBODY BOUGHT THEM! They were unpopular, and were dropped. The only popular 45MPG-rated car is the Toyota Pius hybrid.

Come on dude... CVT transmissions... VVT variable valve timing... not to mention hybrid technology. You know there's tons of innovation that can greatly increase gas mileage. I have a Lexus that gets 20 city... 30 highway for Christ sake.

Which is already being done; none of it is new (CVT's and variable valve timing are both 20 years old). 30MPG highway isn't that impressive.

 

[Bunz]

I wasn't sure before, and if you already know this, sorry to repeat. Corn that is made into Ethanol, is not at all like the corn you eat. In fact, they are incompatible. Ethanol corn, it not edible. Edible corn, is not refine-able.

Andy the issue is having enough arable land for growing the corn, one type versus another, and corn versus another type of crop. I would suggest a good first start would be to replace the high fructose corn syrup found in soft drinks with something else, and in place of that grow a crop that is able to make ethanol. Or create more farm areas.

 

[Bunz]

I notice an interesting trend here. Neocons love to apply fascist labels to those they don't like. You know, like Islamofascist, Ecofascist. Two important points emerge from this:

1. They haven't a clue what fascism is

and 2. Maybe we ought to start applying some labels here too to liven things up.

Any ideas?

There are two common themes when it comes to neocon tactics that seem to be in use over and over again.
1. Identify my weakest point and attack my enemy on that. No matter how ludacris, then go onto throw in other adjectives that are misplaced, inaccurate, or simply ignorant

2. Attack opponents on thier positions, when that doesnt work, attack opponents character, when that doesnt work, attack thier associates.

Seen it time and time again.

 

[Bunz]

I didnt notice this one before, and I realize that Coyote already did some response, but I will add in some extras.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if I remember correctly... wasn't the reason that Oil had to be put on a ship to begin with is because some fruity eco-nutz didn't want a pipeline built?

Obviously you understand little of how that whole thing came about. So, in other words you are categorically wrong, incorrect and ignorant on the issue. The oil has to be put on a ship because that is the most efficeint way to get it to market. It goes from the north slope way in the arctic down the 800 miles pipeline to the ice free port of valdez.

Btw, oil cleans up naturally. Most of Valdez was cleaned up by nature. Oil is naturally consumed by micro organisms.

This is the mot uninformed statement I have seen all day. At the height of the cleanup there were 10,000 workers going 24 hours a day on the efforts. Even to this day 19 years later, I can bring you to places where there is still oil. And lots of oil about a foot below the surface. If we depended on your micro organism theory there would be about 10million of the 11million gallons spilled. There would be zero salmon run in the region, whereas it is only just now recovering. There would be a completely destroyed ecosystem. But you obviously have no clue as to what Prince William Sound really is, or how oil is cleaned up when there is an industrial spill.

 

[Libsmasher]

Hate to break it to you. Bush is conservative. .

Nonsense.

 

[Libsmasher]

I notice an interesting trend here. Neocons love to apply fascist labels to those they don't like. You know, like Islamofascist, Ecofascist. Two important points emerge from this:

1. They haven't a clue what fascism is

The current liberals are becoming more fascist all the time: from the many ways they suppress free speech (rico law applied to abortion protesters, university speech codes, hate crime legislation, liberal media near-monopoly), to the bigotries they promote (anti-white male, anti-christian) to the corporatist-like way they'v turned corporations into agencies to promote their destructive policies (ethanol fiasco, racial discrimination).

Hint: get a dictionary and look up "fascism".

 

[Bunz]

Dipping in this direction is off topic, but Ill play along for now.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

GOP and facism.
Lets think about this, under the Bush administration, it is no longer required for the government to acquire warrants for searches and are systematically storing the phone calls of hundreds of millions of INNOCENT Americans. We have entered into pre-emptive war, have attempted to limit personal freedoms and rights. We hold foreign nationals in limbo with a complete suspension of due process that we would demand for our own citizens overseas. The GOP wants to randomly stop and potentially detain groups of people in the country based on what nationality they appear to be. Driven the nation into massive debts, raising inflation and most of it based on spreading a sense of fear and nationalism at the same time.
Who hates us for our freedoms? What happened to bird flu? Where is Osama Bin Laden?
Where are the WMDs? Why were those attorney's fired? When will the insurgency die?

In its actions, no Administration in my lifetime has acted more like a facist authoritarian regime than the Bush disaster.

 

[Coyote]

The current liberals are becoming more fascist all the time: from the many ways they suppress free speech (rico law applied to abortion protesters...

You mean like these designated "free speech zones"? http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

Oops...those are conservatives squashing free speech. My bad

university speech codes

Private property rights there bud - they can do whatever the hell they want on their turf.

hate crime legislation

How exactly is that "fascist"? Or are you trying to make the case that people should have the freedom to beat up homosexuals and intimidate black families into leaving white neighborhoods? Now realistically I'm up in the air about "hate crimes" - at times it is applied far to broadly. However I know enough about history to know it in no way resembles the fascism of Mussolini's Italy or Hitler's Germany and people who whine and gripe have no idea what it was like under those regimes and need a hefty dose of reality to know how good they really have it.

liberal media near-monopoly

Matter of opinion. While it is generally agreed that there is a leftward slant to MSM it is nowhere near a "near monopoly" and a slant is not a full-scale slide downhill to the leftist propaganda mills. Witness the advent of internet news, blogs, and opinion sites that now guarantees that conservatives have equal access to the masses and equal lack of accountability to truth or to the consequences of their verbal spews. Be happy - by all accounts they are succeeding and the myth of a left controlled media is now becoming increasingly obvious for what it is: a myth.

What REALLY controls the media? Whatever sells.
What sells? What the public has been trained to desire: short sound bites, no depth, sensationalism and SCANDAL. Who needs real indepth news when the Enquirer will do quite nicely?

, to the bigotries they promote (anti-white male, anti-christian) to the corporatist-like way they'v turned corporations into agencies to promote their destructive policies (ethanol fiasco, racial discrimination).

Lots of pretty words that sound like political talking points from a righwing playbook. How about some actual facts? For example, your ethanol example has already been shown to be painfully lacking in reality. Got anything better?

Hint: get a dictionary and look up "fascism".

Bunz has already nicely done the job. Now, do you need a history lesson in fascism (best examples are Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy) or are you going to continue to insist that on applying silly and nonsensical labels?

And folks, we still need some equally silly and nonsensical labels for our rightwing counterparts. All suggestions will be duly considered on the basis of: proximaty to reality (the further away, the better), ability to sound literate in soundbites, bumperstickers and short sentences while remaining devoid of content.

 

[Bunz]

And folks, we still need some equally silly and nonsensical labels for our rightwing counterparts. All suggestions will be duly considered on the basis of: proximaty to reality (the further away, the better), ability to sound literate in soundbites, bumperstickers and short sentences while remaining devoid of content.

I think only the german language provides for a compound word that long.

 

[Libsmasher]

Dipping in this direction is off topic, but Ill play along for now.

Main Entry: fas·cism
Pronunciation: \ˈfa-ˌshi-zəm also ˈfa-ˌsi-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Italian fascismo, from fascio bundle, fasces, group, from Latin fascis bundle & fasces fasces
Date: 1921
1often capitalized : a political philosophy, movement, or regime (as that of the Fascisti) that exalts nation and often race above the individual and that stands for a centralized autocratic government headed by a dictatorial leader, severe economic and social regimentation, and forcible suppression of opposition

Where ever the above definition came from, it is bogus - with this definition, you couldn't distinguish fascism from communism.

GOP and facism.
Lets think about this, under the Bush administration, it is no longer required for the government to acquire warrants for searches and are systematically storing the phone calls of hundreds of millions of INNOCENT Americans.

Riiiight - the government is ransacking the houses of hundreds of millions. The government is taking extraordinary measures in wartime in order to intercept enemy communications, as has been customary in all american wars. Hundreds of millions?? Give me a list of, say, one hundred americans and precisely how they've been harmed.

We have entered into pre-emptive war,

So what? Tell exactly why a pre-emptive war is bad and not good.

have attempted to limit personal freedoms and rights.

Like what?

We hold foreign nationals in limbo with a complete suspension of due process that we would demand for our own citizens overseas.

Uh, if that particular vague, detached remark refers to the Guantanamo islamofascists, they are properly construed as prisoners of war, held during hostilities, as has been the millenia-long custom.

The GOP wants to randomly stop and potentially detain groups of people in the country based on what nationality they appear to be.

No, the GOP, noting that few swedish grandmothers have blown up skyscrapers, RATIONALLY want to use a profiling system at airports that takes into account the known proven probabilistic characteristics of terrorists. YOU on the other hand, prefer Pee See to reality.

Driven the nation into massive debts, raising inflation and most of it based on spreading a sense of fear and nationalism at the same time.

War has ALWAYS been expensive, and what do you mean fear? I'm not afraid. Do you think the black helicopters will come for you any day?

Who hates us for our freedoms? What happened to bird flu? Where is Osama Bin Laden?
Where are the WMDs? Why were those attorney's fired? When will the insurgency die?

Incoherent.

In its actions, no Administration in my lifetime has acted more like a facist authoritarian regime than the Bush disaster.

Completely paranoid and utterly groundless.

 

[Libsmasher]

You mean like these designated "free speech zones"? http://www.amconmag.com/12_15_03/feature.html

Oops...those are conservatives squashing free speech. My bad

Such zones have always been used by the secret service to protect presidents. Comparable to using racketeering laws to bust abortion protesters? Noooooooo..........

Quality of analogy? Beyond stupid.

Private property rights there bud - they can do whatever the hell they want on their turf.

That's not the issue - the issue is that universities, EVEN during the middle ages, have always been places of free thought and inquiry. Now they join the list of institutions decaying because of liberals, becoming fortresses of liberal monothink. Incidentally, for state universities, you are WRONG, any such government run universities are prohibited from suppressing free speech by the constitution.

How exactly is that "fascist"?

Clueless, huh? OK. Hate crime legislation is unconstitutional because it gives people an extra penalty for what they think.

Matter of opinion. While it is generally agreed that there is a leftward slant to MSM it is nowhere near a "near monopoly" and a slant is not a full-scale slide downhill to the leftist propaganda mills. Witness the advent of internet news, blogs, and opinion sites that now guarantees that conservatives have equal access to the masses and equal lack of accountability to truth or to the consequences of their verbal spews. Be happy - by all accounts they are succeeding and the myth of a left controlled media is now becoming increasingly obvious for what it is: a myth.

You are a fact-ducker. Yes, a very few things like the internet are a crack in the wall of the former Berlin Wall of liberal media, and the net ONLY because libs can't control it because of its diffuse nature. That's why I said "near-monopoly". Before the net, Fox, and Rush, it was a monopoly. The three broadcast networks for decades, the big city monopoly newspapers, the newsmagazines, USA Today, MSNBC, CNN, PBS, NPR, Hollywood - all still one titantic tide of liberal slush. If you can't debate the facts, don't clutter the thread.

What REALLY controls the media? Whatever sells.
What sells? What the public has been trained to desire: short sound bites, no depth, sensationalism and SCANDAL. Who needs real indepth news when the Enquirer will do quite nicely?

Completely irrelevent and off-topic.

Lots of pretty words that sound like political talking points from a righwing playbook. How about some actual facts? For example, your ethanol example has already been shown to be painfully lacking in reality. Got anything better?

Uh, no it hasn't, I did provide facts, you haven't rebut them. Now you want to even lie about a thread in the selfsame thread? That's beyond the pale, even for most libs.

Bunz has already nicely done the job.

Skip the cheerleading, and summon arguments - if you can.

Now, do you need a history lesson in fascism (best examples are Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy) or are you going to continue to insist that on applying silly and nonsensical labels?

How could anyone TELL if it's nonsensical? Not from you - you appear to be afraid to engage in any actual debate. Your stuff seems to be a factless rant full of cheerleading, unsupported claims of "myths", "pretty words" accusations in lieu of rebuttal, lying about previous posts, etc etc etc.

blah blah blah

Enough.

 

[Coyote]

Such zones have always been used by the secret service to protect presidents. Comparable to using racketeering laws to bust abortion protesters? Noooooooo..........

Quality of analogy? Beyond stupid.

Errr....not quite.

According to Wikipedia on the history of "free speech zones":

The most prominent examples are those created by the United States Secret Service for President George W. Bush and other members of his administration.[3] While free speech zones existed in limited forms prior to the Presidency of George W. Bush, it has been during Bush's presidency that their scope has been greatly expanded.[4]

Many colleges and universities earlier instituted free speech zone rules during the Vietnam-era protests of the 1960s and 1970s. In recent years, a number of them have revised or removed these restrictions following student protests and lawsuits.​

Note: in both those examples, it was a conservative administration clamping down on free speech.

Now, let's look at abortion protestors.

According to this article:
High court to hear appeal from anti-abortion protesters

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court agreed today to use a long-running lawsuit over violence and harassment outside abortion clinics to clarify how an anti-racketeering law applies to all manner of demonstrations and civil disobedience.

The court said it would consider combined appeals from Operation Rescue, anti-abortion leader Joseph Scheidler and others who were ordered to pay damages to abortion clinics and barred from interfering with their business for 10 years.

Federal courts found that the anti-abortion protesters illegally blocked clinic entrances, menaced doctors, patients and clinic staff and destroyed equipment during a 15-year campaign to limit or stop abortions at several clinics. Since when has free speech meant the right to destroy property and threaten people?

The Supreme Court has already ruled in the same case that the National Organization for Women and abortion clinics could sue the anti-abortion protesters under RICO. The question now is whether the law was used correctly.

For example, the court will look at whether clinic blockades and violence amount to extortion under the law. It will also consider whether RICO allows private groups or individuals to ask for the kind of far-reaching ban on future conduct issued in this case.

A Chicago-based federal appeals court last year rejected arguments that the Operation Rescue protesters were merely exercising freedom of speech.

"Protesters trespassed on clinic property and blocked access to clinics with their bodies, including at times chaining themselves in the doorways of clinics or to operating tables," said a unanimous, three-judge panel of the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals. Important note: "Ecofascists" who tresspassed and chained themselves to trees to prevent timbering were arrested. Their acts were not considered "free speech".

"At other times, protesters destroyed clinic property, including putting glue in clinic door locks and destroying medical equipment used to perform abortions. On still other occasions, protesters physically assaulted clinic staff and patients." Important note: "Ecofascists" who tresspassed and chained themselves to trees to prevent timbering were arrested for a crime. Their acts were not considered "free speech". ​

Entire article: http://www.freedomforum.org/templates/document.asp?documentID=16112

I sense a powerful double standard in this free speech whining.

Must go, will address the rest of the blather later

 

[top gun]

The current liberals are becoming more fascist all the time: from the many ways they suppress free speech (rico law applied to abortion protesters, university speech codes, hate crime legislation, liberal media near-monopoly), to the bigotries they promote (anti-white male, anti-christian) to the corporatist-like way they'v turned corporations into agencies to promote their destructive policies (ethanol fiasco, racial discrimination).

Hint: get a dictionary and look up "fascism".

Dude... you have way too much hate... and it's directed at the wrong people.

Law enforcement brought out the Rico Act because the nut jobs were shooting doctors and blowing up women's in heath care clinics.

And you think it's a bad thing to have extra enhanced punishment against groups that get together and plot to physically beat and/or kill someone just because they are different then them... PLEEEEASE!!!

Liberal monopoly... you're just teasing. You can't be serious. FIX (fox) NEWS... the fear monger misfits on neo-con talk radio. You're being silly.

Anti-white male...
Anti-christian...
Anti-corporation...

You blame just about everybody but the Klan... OH, wait a minute.