Does human life begin at conception?

[PLC1]

The amount of mental masturbation liberals engage in in order to just be able to look themselves in the mirror is genuinely startling. The more I talk to them the more I just have to shake my head. I don't think I have ever discussed a single topic with a liberal in which they were straight forward and brutally honest. They lie to themselves and lie to everyone they speak to in an effort to get someone else to join in the lie.

Personally, I don't see why someone would have to go to such lengths in order to simply admit that there comes a point when someone is so damaged that they are never going to recover and at that point, there is nothing wrong with withholding medical resources and letting them die. A person could bankrupt their family and cost taxpayers millions lingering on for years. Again, what strikes me with this issue is the amount of rationalization required to simply let someone who is so damaged that they will never recover die while at the same time they casually say that it is fine for a woman to have a perfectly healthy individual killed for reasons that very rarely amount to more than convenience. The hypocrisy is stunning and it leads one to wonder what goes on in a mind that can apparently justify holding such opposing viewpoints.

Do non liberals, then, oppose organ transplants? If a brain dead patient, any one who has no chance of recovery, is "alive", then taking their heart to save another patient is "killing" them, is it not?

 

[dogtowner]

Do non liberals, then, oppose organ transplants? If a brain dead patient, any one who has no chance of recovery, is "alive", then taking their heart to save another patient is "killing" them, is it not?

No don't oppose but I acknowlege that the donor is sacrificing something. Moreover at least here in VA one can note their agreement to be a donor several ways including on your drivers permit.

 

[PLC1]

No don't oppose but I acknowlege that the donor is sacrificing something. Moreover at least here in VA one can note their agreement to be a donor several ways including on your drivers permit.

We have the same thing here in California as well.
But, what is the donor giving up, really? He isn't even going to know what's happening.

 

[dogtowner]

We have the same thing here in California as well.
But, what is the donor giving up, really? He isn't even going to know what's happening.

Hope.
Can't know he is not aware. Other times he is very much aware, knows the clock is winding down for him but also for the donee.
It's not the same as going to the junk yard looking for a spare part.

 

[PLC1]

Hope.
Can't know he is not aware. Other times he is very much aware, knows the clock is winding down for him but also for the donee.
It's not the same as going to the junk yard looking for a spare part.

It's similar.
The car in the junk yard has no one inside.
The body with no brain function has no one inside. It is simply a body with no mind, no spirit.

 

[dogtowner]

It's similar.
The car in the junk yard has no one inside.
The body with no brain function has no one inside. It is simply a body with no mind, no spirit.

the car never had anyone inside. they used to believe people in comas and other supposedly lights off conditions were not so lights off as they thought. as to spirit, when does the soul leave ? that nobody knows.

 

[PLC1]

the car never had anyone inside. they used to believe people in comas and other supposedly lights off conditions were not so lights off as they thought. as to spirit, when does the soul leave ? that nobody knows.

Now there are machines that can determine when there is no longer brain function.

No, no one knows when the spirit leaves the body. The very existence of a spirit is controversial, in fact. The best we can do is to infer that the spirit leaves when the brain shuts down, or perhaps that the brain shuts down because the spirit is gone. How do we know the spirit is gone even when the heart stops beating?

 

[palerider]

The body with no brain function has no one inside. It is simply a body with no mind, no spirit.

Can you support either one of those claims? Do you believe that we know everything there is to know about the mind and the brain? Do you believe that at our present state of technology were are capable of accurately measuring and interpreting everything going on inside the human brain? Do you believe those squiggles that you see on an electroencephalogram are measuring everything going on in the human brain...and do you believe they are providing accurate information about what is going on in the human mind? How much of the mind do you believe can even be measured?

And you have what inside information that would allow you to state categorically that there is no spirit present? For that matter, what inside verifiable information do you have on the topic of spirits at all?

Do you ever bother to actually learn anything or do you just go about spouting gibberish on any topic that comes along?

 

[palerider]

Now there are machines that can determine when there is no longer brain function.

There are machines that can determine that there is no longer brain function that we can measure.....I doubt that you would find any expert in the field who would claim that the machines at present are capable of measuring everything going on in the brain and doubt that you would find any that would suggest that what we are measuring more than skims the outermost surface of the mind. You seem to operate entirely on uninformed opinion.

No, no one knows when the spirit leaves the body. The very existence of a spirit is controversial, in fact. The best we can do is to infer that the spirit leaves when the brain shuts down[/quote]

Based on what inside knowledge?

or perhaps that the brain shuts down because the spirit is gone. How do we know the spirit is gone even when the heart stops beating?

Or you could alter that statement to a short time after the heart stops beating and cell death has reached a point at which the body can no longer be revived and be accurate. When enough cell death has occurred that the body can't be revived, then you are dead....

 

[dogtowner]

The issue as I see it is the assumption that no brain activity = dead.
I showed proof that you can live with only a stem. People have lived for years that way.
We have guessed wrong before regarding whether there was anyone home in comas and such.
I'm just saying any absolute certainty is a stretch to put it kindly and is only done as a convenience for legal reasons.

 

[PLC1]

The issue as I see it is the assumption that no brain activity = dead.
I showed proof that you can live with only a stem. People have lived for years that way.
We have guessed wrong before regarding whether there was anyone home in comas and such.
I'm just saying any absolute certainty is a stretch to put it kindly and is only done as a convenience for legal reasons.

I suppose it depends on your definition of "live".

 

[dogtowner]

I suppose it depends on your definition of "live".

Yup. If some sort of conscienceness is what you feel separates inert and ert (I don't think that's the opposite of inert but you get the idea) then it can only apply to a subset of things generally associated with being live.

 

[palerider]

The issue as I see it is the assumption that no brain activity = dead.[/wuote]

And it is a large, demonstrably false assumption.. The bulk of life on earth doesn't even have a brain....much less consciousness and yet, no one would suggest that it is not alive.

 

[palerider]

I suppose it depends on your definition of "live".

When you find that you can't make your argument with standard, accepted definitions, it should be a pretty good clue to you that you are wrong if you have any critical thinking skills whatsoever.

The authors of dictionaries beat you to the definition of "life" a long time ago and the definitions don't support your argument.

 

[palerider]

Yup. If some sort of conscienceness is what you feel separates inert and ert (I don't think that's the opposite of inert but you get the idea) then it can only apply to a subset of things generally associated with being live.

We are witnessing world class mental masturbation here. I do enjoy watching liberals try to defend their indefensible positions. The sheer outlandishness of their mental gyrations and gymnastics is entertainment like no other. It is like watching a train wreck in very slow motion. You know it can't end well for those on board, but it is fascinating as hell to watch.