Death to all dictionaries!

Not the same, necessarily, but they still deserve to be treated as human beings. If you disagree, I suggest you take it up with the writers of our Bill of Rights.

Many of these writers owned slaves, I do not think they meant it as a global interpretation, but that can be an argument for later.

I certainly do not advocate killing any illegal immigrants or anything such as that, but I would be in favor of deporting them once they are caught.

And that is a problem that needs to addressed. Tell me, do you think that referring to them in an overtly demeaning way - implying that their existence is illegitimate - will in some way convince them not to come back?

Let me put it another way. Do you somehow think that insulting people who enjoy murdering for fun, as you put it, will discourage those people from coming here, where the people who insulted them live?

I do not think that the way we classify them in popular discourse will have any impact on anything. They come here to work, not to avoid being called an immigrant.


I care about America too. I really hope that you, and everyone who disagrees with my views on things like this, realize that I do have the interests of our country at heart, and that I don't put the interests of others over our own. Figuring out how to help them - or figuring out how to help them help themselves - helps us, in that it stops them from flooding in. In the meantime, improving our view of these people helps improve their view of us, which, hopefully, makes them less inclined to disregard our laws. And if it doesn't do that - who does it hurt? What is so awful about not being able to call someone an "illegal immigrant" in a legal document?

No one is questioning your love of the country. But legal definitions matter, the language that gets used matters. It is the same, in my view, to the whole debate over "fetus" or "baby."

Legal terms and language used in these documents matters. While on the surface the terminology makes no difference, in a legal case this kind of thing is then cited in arguments and lays out foundations for cases.

If someone broke the law to come here, they illegally came here. I do not see the problem with calling it what it is. Illegal.

That said, I am not advocating that we deny an immigrant the right to life, or anything such as that, I am simply saying we deny them what we deny thousands of others, the ability to be in this country without legal documentation.
 
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Many of these writers owned slaves, I do not think they meant it as a global interpretation, but that can be an argument for later.

We can file that one away for a rainy day.

NOTE: This is kind of creepy, but it actually started raining here as I was typing this response...

I certainly do not advocate killing any illegal immigrants or anything such as that, but I would be in favor of deporting them once they are caught.

I agree, since I don't see any better way of dealing with them once they're here. The real issue shouldn't be so much beefing up our security as figuring out how to eliminate their desire (need?) to come here.

I do not think that the way we classify them in popular discourse will have any impact on anything. They come here to work, not to avoid being called an immigrant.

Classification is always an issue; otherwise, racial slurs wouldn't be treated any differently from simple statemtents of ethnicity. If classification wasn't an issue "racial slurs" probably never would have been developed in the first place. Now, I'm not saying that calling them "illegal immigrants" is a racial slur (or even a "slur" for that matter), but it is demeaning.

No one is questioning your love of the country.

It happens with alarming frequency, although, admittedly, less of late.

But legal definitions matter, the language that gets used matters. It is the same, in my view, to the whole debate over "fetus" or "baby."

Legal terms and language used in these documents matters. While on the surface the terminology makes no difference, in a legal case this kind of thing is then cited in arguments and lays out foundations for cases.

That said, I am not advocating that we deny an immigrant the right to life, or anything such as that, I am simply saying we deny them what we deny thousands of others, the ability to be in this country without legal documentation.

We are in one hundred percent agreement so far.

If someone broke the law to come here, they illegally came here. I do not see the problem with calling it what it is. Illegal.

The article deals with calling it what it is. For them, coming here was illegal. Being here is illegal. Existing is not illegal. The term "illegal immigrant" at least has the ambiguity that it could describe the first two and not the third, but things like "illegal entity," "illegal alien," or just plain "illegal" imply the third much more heavily than the first two.

From the article:

It said acceptable terms are "undocumented immigrants," "foreign nationals," "persons without legal immigration status," "unauthorized workers" and "alleged or suspected undocumented immigrants."

None of these, by themselves, validate the actions of people who came here illegally. None of these terms, by the by, invalidate any other part of those peoples' lives, either, nor can they (easily) be misconstrued, as the term "illegal alien" has been, to do so. The terms listed in the article (with the exception of the mention of "human rights advocates," that one came out of left field) are just more concise.



Some food for thought: What if we were to attach the term "illegal" to other people who commit crimes? If we refer to murderers as "illegal killers," there is an obvious follow-up question: who are the "legal killers?" Executioners? Police officers, who must sometimes kill in the line of duty? Our soldiers? The association is uncomfortable, to say the least.
 
Why did you choose to support four kids in India
Because it was my choice????? The problems there at that time were a lot worse than they have ever been in Mexico. It was appreciated too. As they grew these kids bothered to take the time over the years to make me a trinket from whatever they had, for my birthday. They thanked me. They had grace.

What is so awful about not being able to call someone an "illegal immigrant" in a legal document?

Because I don't want anyone to dictate to me what I should or shouldn't say to them just to make them feel better about themselves. It's called freedom of speech.

something that has a real existence
they call themselves Hispanic, which designates a "group", not a person. Hispanic designates an entire people, an entity.

I won't back down for one minute to give illegal Mexicans rights in this country, which its government is pushing for big time, the same government that won't reciprocate with Americans having ANY rights in Mexico. Gee, is that a good sign of things to come from kindness?
I'm not saying that we should allow illegal immigration - just that there are better ways to deal with it than through heavy-handedness.
Such as?

Giving more money that never reaches the ones that need it?

You know damn well that the only other answer is an economic one.

Vyo you are assuming that all humans have the same values. They don't.

Are you going to change human nature with a kind word? with a buck? Are you going to change human nature at all? Civilization is a thin facade. We are in a very serious struggle for the future of this country that was not made great by illegal immigrants. I will fight tooth and nail to try to stop them from tearing it down because they can't make it in their own land and don't care about mine.

You apparently have more cheeks to turn than I. I applaud you.
 
Because it was my choice????? The problems there at that time were a lot worse than they have ever been in Mexico. It was appreciated too. As they grew these kids bothered to take the time over the years to make me a trinket from whatever they had, for my birthday. They thanked me. They had grace.

I was honestly just curious. I applaud your decision to help them, it was a truly compassionate thing to do.

Because I don't want anyone to dictate to me what I should or shouldn't say to them just to make them feel better about themselves. It's called freedom of speech.

And if they were talking about censoring your freedom to say what you want I'd be behind you (albeit with a bad taste in my mouth). They're talking about legal documents here - court decisions. What is said in those documents has a lot more to do with social responsibility than with the official's right to freedom of speech. If he wants to speak his mind later, outside his official capacity, then fine - but what is said in legal documents isn't a matter of his (or her) individual right to freedom of speech.

I've been known to scold people on what I think they should and shouldn't say, but that's because I believe that with some debate on the matter, people might be willing to change their minds. I would never suggest using the force of government to censor individual freedom of speech to attain my own goals. It would be hypocritical - not to mention antithetical.

they call themselves Hispanic, which designates a "group", not a person. Hispanic designates an entire people, an entity.

Look at the definition again. Ethnicities, such as the "Hispanic" ethnicity, are abstract concepts that do not have a "real" or corporeal existence. One could be a "Hispanic" entity, but the entirety of the Hispanic ethnicity is not in and of itself an "entity."

I won't back down for one minute to give illegal Mexicans rights in this country, which its government is pushing for big time, the same government that won't reciprocate with Americans having ANY rights in Mexico. Gee, is that a good sign of things to come from kindness?

So perhaps we should just murder these "illegals," hmm? Since we shouldn't give them rights in this country. And it's all okay because Mexico doesn't give Americans rights in Mexico.

Such as?

Giving more money that never reaches the ones that need it?

You know damn well that the only other answer is an economic one.

I do. And I also understand that not all economic solutions involve handing money to people. There's an old saying - "Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

We could try making our foreign aid (something we pay them already) incentive-based - so that they know that if they aren't making progress, we'll stop paying.

Vyo you are assuming that all humans have the same values. They don't.

If I assumed that I wouldn't bother coming here.

Are you going to change human nature with a kind word? with a buck? Are you going to change human nature at all? Civilization is a thin facade. We are in a very serious struggle for the future of this country that was not made great by illegal immigrants. I will fight tooth and nail to try to stop them from tearing it down because they can't make it in their own land and don't care about mine.

And while you're busy fighting, you won't solve the problem. This isn't something we can just ball up our collective fist and sock in the jaw, not unless we're willing to take it all the way - post armed troops all along the border with orders to shoot and kill; execute any illegals found in this country; maybe invade their country and set up stricter controls on the population; or just nuke them to hell and gone and be done with it. There's your tooth and nail - are you willing to pursue it?

You apparently have more cheeks to turn than I. I applaud you.

Empathy is a means, not an end.
 
So perhaps we should just murder these "illegals," hmm?

I don't advocate murder, but whatever. How about just make sure they can't come here instead?

"Give a man a fish, he eats for a day. Teach a man to fish, he eats for a lifetime."

You have to want to learn.

Empathy is great. Empathy is an emotion. However, money is money, and this country doesn't need to spend another penny supporting people who have no right to be here, because they chose to do it the wrong way.
 
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This country has become too politically correct..
I call them Illegal Criminals. They commited a crime by coming over here which is a criminal offense and it is Illegal. Why is it wrong to say the truth anymore.? I`ll tell you
why. Because the left is soo fu*^%$ screwed up that they go by emotion and do not
have the nuts to call a spade a spade. I am glad I`m not in California, they will be waving
the Mexican flag down there in a couple years.
 
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