death penalty

[Dr.Who]

Did I miss something? Where was it determined that 7 out of 9 witnesses recanting was bull?

Yes. It was not said that 7 out of nine or 7/9ths recanted. What was said was that of the nine witnesses seven recanted.

And that statement was proven to be false on multiple levels. First there were 34 witnesses not 9. Second the circumstances of the recantations were explained to not make any difference to the case.

 

[Dr.Who]

This is fine. But I don't think it's a basis to wipe out a sin that cannot be undone. All the repenting for oneself in the world isn't going to bring back someone they killed, who didn't get that chance to continue living.

In the eyes of god sins do get wiped out. Even Hitler should he have had a death bed conversion would have been forgiven. The consequences for sin do often continue regardless of forgiveness. So yes, I agree with you just phrase it a bit differently. Yes dead people are still dead. But who is the real victim of sin? I say the real victim is God and self.

I have no problem with someone's soul being judged by God and not me.

If in that judgment God wipes away sin do you also consider it wiped away or do continue to condemn?

However, in this physical world, their actions are judged by laws, which are designed to protect the many from what is hopefully the abhorrant few. Do innocent people get put to death? Yes. Did they KNOW that might be the case when they committed the crime? YES.

If they were innocent then they did not know that their crimes might lead to death. Unless you are saying that they committed one crime but were put to death for a different crime that they were innocent of.

Iwould contend that MORE innocent people get murdered every year, than innocent people have been put to death by the state, EVER

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Me too.

The favorite argument is that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Nothing is a deterrent to everyone, but death is certainly a deterent to the one who can no longer commit that murder isn't it? Isn't it one case at a time?

Prison then would be an equal deterrent.

How about this instead: The sentence is life without parole. The length of your sentence depends on who, on the outside, wants to keep you fed, etc. When that ends, I guess so does your life sentence. Why should my tax dollars be spent on someone who will never be anything but a drain on societies wallet? A CRIMINAL, not just Mr. Homeless guy, before someone spins it that way.

I'm not so sure about that solution but I agree that the prisons should not be a drain on the system.

I'd just rather spend that tax money/food on any child anywhere, who still has a chance to have a good life, be a decent person, contribute to society, and walk in the grace of God, if that is how you want to see it.

I would prefer that that child's parents pay for him. Or a charity. And if the prisons were self-supporting then we would never have to sacrifice the one for the other.

I don't see that it is justice for someone who has killed or raped another, to get to watch T.V., laugh, love, eat, walk, and do all the things that their victim, can't.

Justice does need to be served. Whether through death or through jail time it will still be served. And if we have a system that is as good as it can be then I don't really care which penalty is paid.

 

[Dr.Who]

Oh ? Got a ferinstance ? I'm not recollecting one.

On the side of letting the civil laws prevail there are the obvious examples of himself (though innocent) and the thief on the cross.

We won't count the woman taken in adultery.

But consider every single time He told someone to repent. Are we to believe that he never told anyone who had committed a civil crime to repent? Of course of the people he told to repent some would have committed civil crimes. David was a murderer. But the list of capital offenses is not limited to murder; cursing parents, fortunetelling, being a false prophet, adultery, fornication, sacrificing to idols, etc. Clearly the number of people guilty of a capital offense would be quite large. Jesus is not opposed to guilty people not being punished by the civil authorities at times.

What of those who were actually arrested? Peter was in jail and angels let him go. Jesus is not opposed to going against the civil authorities at times too. In fact we are instructed to do so when God's law supercedes them. But Peter did not commit a capital offense.

Do we have an example where both occur at the same time. Where Jesus permits someone to escape a civil penalty after being judged by that authority and for a capital offense? David was judged by a prophet but we won't count that one either.

I think we do. Moses committed murder and was being pursued by the Egyptians when God assisted him to hide in the desert.

Jesus quotes either a non-biblical law (the code of hamurabi) You have heard...an eye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...life for a life... or just quotes the old testament which leaves off the life for a life. But Jesus adds "But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." He isn't exactly contradicting the Old Testament since it was already interpreted to be figurative (for example the Jews had not law permitting maiming as punishment - eye for eye) But it is clear that he is circumventing those punishments. Would this include capital punishment?

So I don't have a clear example either But I think there is enough information on the subject to draw a conclusion that a civil capital offense can be biblicly avoided.

Is there an example we both have missed? I suspect so.

 

[Openmind]

Yes. It was not said that 7 out of nine or 7/9ths recanted. What was said was that of the nine witnesses seven recanted.

And that statement was proven to be false on multiple levels. First there were 34 witnesses not 9. Second the circumstances of the recantations were explained to not make any difference to the case.

I guess we'll have to disagree with this one also!
Could you provide a link that states there were 34 witnesses?

 

[dogtowner]

On the side of letting the civil laws prevail there are the obvious examples of himself (though innocent) and the thief on the cross.

We won't count the woman taken in adultery.

But consider every single time He told someone to repent. Are we to believe that he never told anyone who had committed a civil crime to repent? Of course of the people he told to repent some would have committed civil crimes. David was a murderer. But the list of capital offenses is not limited to murder; cursing parents, fortunetelling, being a false prophet, adultery, fornication, sacrificing to idols, etc. Clearly the number of people guilty of a capital offense would be quite large. Jesus is not opposed to guilty people not being punished by the civil authorities at times.

What of those who were actually arrested? Peter was in jail and angels let him go. Jesus is not opposed to going against the civil authorities at times too. In fact we are instructed to do so when God's law supercedes them. But Peter did not commit a capital offense.

Do we have an example where both occur at the same time. Where Jesus permits someone to escape a civil penalty after being judged by that authority and for a capital offense? David was judged by a prophet but we won't count that one either.

I think we do. Moses committed murder and was being pursued by the Egyptians when God assisted him to hide in the desert.

Jesus quotes either a non-biblical law (the code of hamurabi) You have heard...an eye for an eye...tooth for a tooth...life for a life... or just quotes the old testament which leaves off the life for a life. But Jesus adds "But I say to you, Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also." He isn't exactly contradicting the Old Testament since it was already interpreted to be figurative (for example the Jews had not law permitting maiming as punishment - eye for eye) But it is clear that he is circumventing those punishments. Would this include capital punishment?

So I don't have a clear example either But I think there is enough information on the subject to draw a conclusion that a civil capital offense can be biblicly avoided.

Is there an example we both have missed? I suspect so.

No question Jesus was ready and willing to forgive sin but lest just agree that He didn't "fix" parking tickets. We are told to render unto Caesar.

 

[Dr.Who]

No question Jesus was ready and willing to forgive sin but lest just agree that He didn't "fix" parking tickets. We are told to render unto Caesar.

Peter got his parking ticket fixed.

 

[Dr.Who]

I guess we'll have to disagree with this one also!
Could you provide a link that states there were 34 witnesses?

https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13714&highlight=recant&page=2

Post 35

 

[Phoenix68]

Lawrence Russell Brewer was executed in Texas Wednesday evening for his involvement in the infamous dragging death of a black man 13 years ago.

Brewer, 44, was one of three men convicted for involvement in the murder of James Byrd.

Would someone who is against the death penalty please plead your case for this guy, and explain why you think he should have lived out his life, and why I should be expected to pay to feed him?

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The Death Penalty is merely ONE MORE BAND-AID, "conservatives" have always implemented, to avoid actually solving the issue of violent / murderous behavior. It just might get a little-too-sciencey, for them.
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You actually believe those murderers were displaying NORMAL-behavior....or, was that simply "normal", in Texass?
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What we NEED is a super-max style research-facility, to finally solve the issue of violent / murderous behavior....and, it's not like we don't have the technology that was lacking....back, when executions were a convenient was to entertain the least-educated (of their day).
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Granted, we'll no-doubt come up against those parents who insist THEY KNOW WHAT'S BEST....when it comes to discipline....that society will have to clean-up, afterwards.
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