Cut Israel Off

[Lasher]

They have done pretty well for themselves in those wars havent they?
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That wasn't the point. The point was that Israel has caused no stability in the ME. On the contrary, they have caused only instability, chaos, wars, killings, and persecution of their neighbors since the bandit-state was formed.
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Those individuals and entities do not have those weapons. The government of Israel does.
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Weren't we talking about the government of Iran having nuclear capabilities, not individuals?
================================================


I am alright with governments having them for the most part. There are some I would rather not have them.
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But you aren't the final arbiter, sir. If Israel can possess nuclear weapons, then Iran has a perfect right to also possess them for her own protection from Israeli mad men.
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But I especially dont want non-government people/groups possesing them. Because they are far less accountable in thier actions should the unthinkable happen and one get used.
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Nor do I. It is just as imaginable for me to see Israeli Zionist extremists getting hold of nuclear weapons as it is for you to envision Arabs with them.
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If terrorist group XYZ were to detonate a nuclear bomb in whatever city, how would that government respond.
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Probably the same way they responded to the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem in 1946, when Zionist terrorists tried to make it look like the dirty work was done by Egyptians.
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Right now nuclear weapons are a deterent against other countries using them. You nuke me, Ill nuke you. Very simple.
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Right, so why shouldn't any sovereign nation have them for protection?
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my issue with that is not that they are doing it...its how they go about it. They are breaking the NPTreaty that they signed.
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You mean like Israel has ignored every U.N. resolution handed down against them that wasn't vetoed by the United States?
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They are claiming it is for peaceful purposes, but you are claiming it is for weaponry.
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I don't care what it's for, they have the same right to have
nuclear power that Israel does. When Israel gets rid of its weapons of mass destruction, then is the time to talk of "non-proliferation."
===============================================


All I know is that I dont know who to believe. I dont believe Bush in any of his WMD scare tactics anymore. I got fooled on that one once and never again.
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Nor do I believe any politician who has been bought (in one way or another) by the Zionist lobby, which encompasses most of the traitors in D.C.
=======================================================


Id like to see the check that was written then, or the appropriation at least.
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Google "contributions" to the various Congresspeople in government.
Even then, you won't find the under-the-table dealings with the various Zionist/Israeli pressure groups. It's easy to surmise facts with a little research.
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Here is the thing with Israel-US relations. Without the US help, Israel would not exist. I think Israel should exist.
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Why?
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We have established trade and aide programs with them. Should we also not sell weaponry to our other allies?
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We don't "sell" war materiel to Israel, we effectively give it to them. We give them the money to purchase the tanks, planes, cannon, bombs, and bullets used to persecute their neighbors, and then stipulate that they must purchase those items from us, in effect, just handing over the means of warring on their neighbors Scot-free. America's bought politicians vote to co-sign massive loans to Israel from the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, and then "forgive" those "loans," meaning we American taxpayers pick up the tab.
=================================================


Always remember. Money Talks, Bull$hit walks.

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I heard that!

 

[Bunz]

Shaman, I dont disagre, I will point out that Israel has been in possession of these weapons for probably several decades.

I simply dont buy into the religious prophecy stuff though. Kind of a standard policy for me.

When it comes to my consistent position on Israel, it is this, that they are an important US ally and considering recent history concerning military conflicts with Israel and her agressive neighbors, it would be prudent for Israel to posess some nuclear weapons for deterent and defensive purposes.

Personally I wish nobody in earth had them, but that Pandoras box is open and cant be closed.

 

[Bunz]

Lasher, I am going to try to respond to your thread. I might mess a few things up when it comes to quotes because the way your post turned out is hard to read. So bare with me.

That wasn't the point. The point was that Israel has caused no stability in the ME. On the contrary, they have caused only instability, chaos, wars, killings, and persecution of their neighbors since the bandit-state was formed

When has that area been stable? Historically it has never been a stable region of the country. Israel had to fight for its life, they won. The government of Israel is quite stable. They have been attacked through conventional and unconventional means since its inception. Do you expect them not to defend themselves?

Weren't we talking about the government of Iran having nuclear capabilities, not individuals?

If you read my earlier post, I said I wish nobody had them. Several countries now possess them. Iran has signed a binding and international treaty saying they will not possess nuclear weapons. I can understand thier desire for them, for the same reason I can understand considering Israel.
Why they should not posses them is because they said they wouldnt.

In terms of the several items concerning the "zionist" agenda and lobby groups and other stuff...This is generally overblown in its importantance. I am not one who buys into the secret zionist control of the world theories. Powerful, sure...controlling no. When they are convicted of breaking campaign finance laws, then come find me.
I will respond further tomorrow.

 

[Lasher]

Shaman, I dont disagre, I will point out that Israel has been in possession of these weapons for probably several decades.

I simply dont buy into the religious prophecy stuff though. Kind of a standard policy for me.

When it comes to my consistent position on Israel, it is this, that they are an important US ally and considering recent history concerning military conflicts with Israel and her agressive neighbors, it would be prudent for Israel to posess some nuclear weapons for deterent and defensive purposes.

Personally I wish nobody in earth had them, but that Pandoras box is open and cant be closed.

==========

So you believe that Israel should be the only sovereign nation in the ME with WMDs? Amazing!!

 

[Lasher]

Lasher, I am going to try to respond to your thread. I might mess a few things up when it comes to quotes because the way your post turned out is hard to read. So bare with me.

When has that area been stable? Historically it has never been a stable region of the country. Israel had to fight for its life, they won. The government of Israel is quite stable.
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So was the government of Nazi Germany.



They have been attacked through conventional and unconventional means since its inception. Do you expect them not to defend themselves?
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Bulldozing occupied homes and orchards, shooting children in their parent's arms, holding pregnant women at check-points for hours, cutting off electricity and water as collective punishment, building walls on occupied land, partitioning off parts of settlements from other parts with those walls, requiring Palestinians to have special license plates on their vehicles . . . these things are not "defending themselves."


If you read my earlier post, I said I wish nobody had them. Several countries now possess them. Iran has signed a binding and international treaty saying they will not possess nuclear weapons. I can understand thier desire for them, for the same reason I can understand considering Israel.
Why they should not posses them is because they said they wouldnt.
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Then shame on Israel for not agreeing to the NPT!! Israel wants to be the only nation in the ME capable of controlling the rest of the area with WMDs, and that just doesn't work with those other nations.


In terms of the several items concerning the "zionist" agenda and lobby groups and other stuff...This is generally overblown in its importantance.
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It isn't overblown at all. It is very important to know that the propaganda media of a country are in the hands of a 2% minority that has interests that are at odds with the host country. That situation allows the 2% to shape and mold the opinions of the other 98% to its wants and needs, whether or not it is in the interests of the 98%.





I am not one who buys into the secret zionist control of the world theories. Powerful, sure...controlling no. When they are convicted of breaking campaign finance laws, then come find me.
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They don't necessarily break campaign finance laws per se, but they do do an end run around them by using many different, various groups and organizations to avoid the laws. The Zionists have formed many kindred groups that all have the same goal (control of American politics), and they all work in unison as though they are one, for the purpose of subverting America to the interests of Israel, not America. These people owe their first allegiance only to Israel.

 

[USMC the Almighty]

Posted for Bunz:

So you believe that Israel should be the only sovereign nation in the ME with WMDs? Amazing!!

I didnt say that. Never did. Id rather nobody had them. In terms of self defense, I am open to what is allowed by law and treaty. Iran is a signator to the NNPT, they are in violation if they develop a nuclear arsenal. Israel has not signed that treaty.

So was the government of Nazi Germany.

Lets try and keep this an apples and apples conversation.

Bulldozing occupied homes and orchards, shooting children in their parent's arms, holding pregnant women at check-points for hours, cutting off electricity and water as collective punishment, building walls on occupied land, partitioning off parts of settlements from other parts with those walls, requiring Palestinians to have special license plates on their vehicles . . . these things are not "defending themselves."

I dont condone the actions of Israel in this regard, nor do I condone the actions of her equally agressive neighbors. You and I and anyone who is generally aware of this issue can list all of the bad behavior of one side or the other to suit whichever side they choose to take. Lets not even bother going down that road.

Then shame on Israel for not agreeing to the NPT!! Israel wants to be the only nation in the ME capable of controlling the rest of the area with WMDs, and that just doesn't work with those other nations.

Shame on any other country that doesnt comply with the treaties they have willingly agreed to. Nobody has the moral high ground here. They are all equally in the gutter.

It isn't overblown at all. It is very important to know that the propaganda media of a country are in the hands of a 2% minority that has interests that are at odds with the host country. That situation allows the 2% to shape and mold the opinions of the other 98% to its wants and needs, whether or not it is in the interests of the 98%.

Turn off your TV then. I am generally at odds with much of the news that gets covered, I tend to form my own opinion on an issue with minimal outside influence.
I did get a nice Channukah invitation for the joint party being thrown by Ted Turner, Rupert Murdoch, Forbes, Gates, Bloomberg, the owners of the large portion of the news media....which one of those listed is a zionist.

They don't necessarily break campaign finance laws per se, but they do do an end run around them by using many different, various groups and organizations to avoid the laws. The Zionists have formed many kindred groups that all have the same goal (control of American politics), and they all work in unison as though they are one, for the purpose of subverting America to the interests of Israel, not America. These people owe their first allegiance only to Israel.

See what your missing here is that it isnt the Jews who control the world, it is the wealthy. Not all the Jews are wealthy, not all the wealthy are Jews. Always remember the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules

 

[Lasher]

Posted for Bunz:



I didnt say that. Never did. Id rather nobody had them. In terms of self defense, I am open to what is allowed by law and treaty. Iran is a signator to the NNPT, they are in violation if they develop a nuclear arsenal. Israel has not signed that treaty.
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And as I said before, that reflects very poorly on Israel for refusing to sign it, and since Israel refuses to abide by any U.N. resolutions against them, I see no reason why Iran should honor a treaty that isn't in her best interest. When Israel joins the peaceful nations that have signed the NPT, then is the time to enforce it. Until that happens, I say Iran or any other nation has a right to arm themselves against a rogue nation that doesn't respect the rest of the world.



Lets try and keep this an apples and apples conversation.
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I see no difference in the governments of Israel and Nazi Germany.



I dont condone the actions of Israel in this regard, nor do I condone the actions of her equally agressive neighbors. You and I and anyone who is generally aware of this issue can list all of the bad behavior of one side or the other to suit whichever side they choose to take. Lets not even bother going down that road.
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When you come to a fork in the road, take it, eh?




Shame on any other country that doesnt comply with the treaties they have willingly agreed to. Nobody has the moral high ground here. They are all equally in the gutter.
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How about some shame on Israel for NOT signing it? And how about some shame on Israel for disregarding all those U.N. resolutions, and America for vetoing all the ones we did?



Turn off your TV then. I am generally at odds with much of the news that gets covered, I tend to form my own opinion on an issue with minimal outside influence.
I did get a nice Channukah invitation for the joint party being thrown by Ted Turner, Rupert Murdoch, Forbes, Gates, Bloomberg, the owners of the large portion of the news media....which one of those listed is a zionist.
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The third most powerful man at AOL-Time Warner, at least on paper, was Vice Chairman Ted Turner, a white gentile. Turner had traded his Turner Broadcasting System, which included CNN, to Time-Warner in 1996 for a large block of Time-Warner shares. By April 2001 Gerald Levin (Jew) had effectively fired Turner, eliminating him from any real power. However Turner remained a very large and outspoken shareholder and member of the board of directors.

Levin overplayed his hand , and in a May 2002 showdown, he was fired by the company's board. For Ted Turner, who had lost $7 billion of his $9 billion due to Levin's mismanagement, it was small solace. Turner remains an outsider with no control over the inner workings of the company.

Murdoch is nominally a gentile, but there is some uncertainty about his ancestry and he has vigorously supported Zionism and other Jewish causes throughout his life. Some say Murdoch's mother, Elisabeth Joy Greene was Jewish.

Of course Bloomberg is a Zionist.

How many read Forbes Magazine for their day-to-day news? Most people get their information from the mainstream, Zionist owned and controlled media of television and newspapers.

What news media are owned by Bill Gates?
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See what your missing here is that it isnt the Jews who control the world, it is the wealthy. Not all the Jews are wealthy, not all the wealthy are Jews. Always remember the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules

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Could you be a little more trite?

 

[Bunz]

And as I said before, that reflects very poorly on Israel for refusing to sign it, and since Israel refuses to abide by any U.N. resolutions against them, I see no reason why Iran should honor a treaty that isn't in her best interest. When Israel joins the peaceful nations that have signed the NPT, then is the time to enforce it. Until that happens, I say Iran or any other nation has a right to arm themselves against a rogue nation that doesn't respect the rest of the world.

It doesnt speak highly of Israel as a government. Nor does it speak highly of Israel's neighbors to not only say they dont have a right to exist, but also to take up arms against Israel in an effort to destroy it several different times.
If one takes a realistic objective look at the current situation concerning Israel vs. say Iran. Israel without those deterent weapons would have been invaded and potentially over run quite awhile ago.
As I have said before, the US has committed to ensuring Israel exists as a homeland for the Jewish people. I think that is a good thing. The Jewish people have been persecuted most places in the world they were displaced to. Would you rather have another holocaust? Would you rather have a large presence of American troops in place to assist the IDF from agressive neighbors...or would you simply have some weapons in place?

I see no difference in the governments of Israel and Nazi Germany.

LOL, well you are free to that opinion. Id brush up on some history and think about revising this statement.

When you come to a fork in the road, take it, eh?

Gotta go one way or the other, if turning around and going back isnt an option. I made the statement because I have been down that road and to compare which one has worse behavior and start to list them is generally pointless and wont serve to do anything but take up bandwidth and will not change either of our positions.

How many read Forbes Magazine for their day-to-day news? Most people get their information from the mainstream, Zionist owned and controlled media of television and newspapers.

Which ones are zionist owned, give me 3-5. I hear this BS all the time about the Jews controlling the media, it generally isnt the case and is overblown.
I mentioned Gates because Microsoft is a very large part of how people consume media today, also the MSN is not an inconsequential source of what people read.

Could you be a little more trite?

Youd be surprised. I am here for the debate/discussion and will generally be very civil. Personal opinions aside, you can hold your own fairly well on the Israel issue. Got any other pet topics?

 

[Lasher]

It doesnt speak highly of Israel as a government. Nor does it speak highly of Israel's neighbors to not only say they dont have a right to exist, but also to take up arms against Israel in an effort to destroy it several different times.
If one takes a realistic objective look at the current situation concerning Israel vs. say Iran. Israel without those deterent weapons would have been invaded and potentially over run quite awhile ago.
As I have said before, the US has committed to ensuring Israel exists as a homeland for the Jewish people. I think that is a good thing. The Jewish people have been persecuted most places in the world they were displaced to. Would you rather have another holocaust? Would you rather have a large presence of American troops in place to assist the IDF from agressive neighbors...or would you simply have some weapons in place?


LOL, well you are free to that opinion. Id brush up on some history and think about revising this statement.

Gotta go one way or the other, if turning around and going back isnt an option. I made the statement because I have been down that road and to compare which one has worse behavior and start to list them is generally pointless and wont serve to do anything but take up bandwidth and will not change either of our positions.

Which ones are zionist owned, give me 3-5. I hear this BS all the time about the Jews controlling the media, it generally isnt the case and is overblown.
I mentioned Gates because Microsoft is a very large part of how people consume media today, also the MSN is not an inconsequential source of what people read.



Youd be surprised. I am here for the debate/discussion and will generally be very civil. Personal opinions aside, you can hold your own fairly well on the Israel issue. Got any other pet topics?

Thank you for your civility.

For a comprehensive list of the media that are Zionist owned, see:
http://www.natall.com/who-rules-america/index.html

 

[Bunz]

Where you lose me Lasher is the focus on the Jewish ownership of various things and generally overlook the Christian/muslim or any other secular group of many times similar items.

For example. The Christian right is a much more powerful lobby in the US than the invisible Jewish one. The sales of arms to muslim countries by the US is much higher than that of Israel.
The amount of money funneled into Arab countries because of thier oil influence is much higher than any foreign aide given to Israel.
Look up how much arms sales go to Saudi Arabia versus Israel.

 

[Lasher]

Where you lose me Lasher is the focus on the Jewish ownership of various things and generally overlook the Christian/muslim or any other secular group of many times similar items.

For example. The Christian right is a much more powerful lobby in the US than the invisible Jewish one.
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==================

Pro-Israel Lobby Has Strong Voice
AIPAC Is Embroiled in Investigation of Pentagon Leaks

By Thomas B. Edsall and Molly Moore
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, September 5, 2004; Page A10

On May 18, President George W. Bush stood before the annual conference of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee in Washington and spoke effusively to its members.

"AIPAC is doing important work," Bush said. "In Washington and beyond, AIPAC is calling attention to the great security challenges of our time.

___Conflict in the Mideast ___
SPECIAL REPORT

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• Full Mideast Coverage

Graphic:
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Special Report:
• Defining the Barrier: A series of multimedia reports examining Israel's controversial building of a security fence to separate it from adjacent Palestinian areas.







"You've always understood and warned against the evil ambition of terrorism and their networks," the president continued. "In a dangerous new century, your work is more vital than ever."

Just over three months later, the most powerful pro-Israel lobbying organization in the United States is embroiled in an FBI probe into whether Pentagon officials gave AIPAC representatives classified material -- which sources said may have included information about Iran -- and whether they in turn passed it to the Israeli government.

For AIPAC, the allegations are potentially devastating to its credibility and large influence in Washington, and its officials have vigorously denied any wrongdoing.

"What really is troubling is the issue of dual loyalties," said Rep. Robert T. Matsui (D-Calif.), one of many senior members of the House who have defended AIPAC. The leaked allegations "raise a troubling specter" with the questioning of AIPAC's loyalty that Matsui said he is acutely sensitive to as a Japanese American who was interned in 1940 at age six months with his U.S.-born parents.

AIPAC executive director Howard Kohr said, "The feelings for Israel [in America] are quite deep. It is a country that shares our interests, our values and has been a valuable democratic ally. . . . since the founding of Israel. This is not something that is going to change. . . . I think AIPAC is going to be stronger at the end of this."

When the existence of the investigation of AIPAC became public more than a week ago, Pentagon officials said the inquiry was focused on one mid-level Pentagon analyst -- Lawrence A. Franklin -- and whether he gave a draft presidential directive on Iran to AIPAC.

Last week, however, The Washington Post reported that the two-year-old probe was broader and that sources said investigators were probing whether other defense officials had given sensitive materials to AIPAC and Ahmed Chalabi, the former Iraqi dissident who was a favorite at the Pentagon before the war. The material in question, sources said, included information not just on Iran but also on the Middle East peace process and on U.S. intentions in Iraq.

If reports of a probe involving AIPAC are true, the group said in a statement, "then surely the confidence demonstrated by the President of the United States, the highest officials in the executive branch [and] key members of the intelligence committees in continuing to regularly meet and address AIPAC during this period of time is substantial vindication of AIPAC's loyalty and trustworthiness."

The allegations have, nonetheless, profoundly shaken members of AIPAC, known as one of the capital's toughest and most effective behind-the-scenes lobbies.

Much of AIPAC's influence lies in the extensive civic participation of its supporters, the high-profile role of board members in making and raising campaign contributions, the strong ties of AIPAC to the government of Israel, and the strategic importance of Israel to U.S. interests. Every two years, AIPAC offers each new member of Congress a trip to Israel for a week to 10 days.

--------------------------------
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[icono1]

Israel seems to have won the implicit and explicit support of the American govt.. Why this is a suprise to anyone is hard to understand.

 

[Bunz]

Lasher, I am quite aware of the activities of the AIPAC. I am also aware of the activities of corporate giants, labor unions, various religious lobbies, and other social movements.

I will agree that the AIPAC is a powerful lobby, considering how the game is played, they do well for themselves...what is so wrong with this?

Again what I will never understand is the blaming the Jews for all of the world's ills.

 

[Lasher]

Lasher, I am quite aware of the activities of the AIPAC. I am also aware of the activities of corporate giants, labor unions, various religious lobbies, and other social movements.

I will agree that the AIPAC is a powerful lobby, considering how the game is played, they do well for themselves...what is so wrong with this?

Again what I will never understand is the blaming the Jews for all of the world's ills.

Those other lobbies you listed do not require America to do things detrimental to America's best interests. They don't demand billions of dollars from the taxpayers. They don't involve America in Middle East wars that alienate the OPEC nations. They don't boast to their members that they control the government. They don't persecute innocent people they have driven off their own lands. In short, they are more or less patriotic organizations.

 

[Bunz]

Those other lobbies you listed do not require America to do things detrimental to America's best interests.

This is arguable to say the least.

They don't demand billions of dollars from the taxpayers.

Umm right, yeah because the insurance industry hasnt required drivers to by law carry thier services, or employers with health insurance. If they arent demanding direct subsidies they are demanding tax cuts.

They don't involve America in Middle East wars that alienate the OPEC nations.

Sure, Boeing, Lockheed, Exxon, BP, Haliburton, the thousands of other companies making large profits off the ongoing conflicts have nothing to say on the matter. All AIPAC.
What your consistently failing to realize the things Israel does for us that we otherwise cant. The Israeli military often times is able to use various US weapons in combat as sort of a testing ground first. The Abrams tank, F-15/F-16, Patriot missles etc are perfect examples. Israel carries out plenty of the dirty work for the US.

They don't boast to their members that they control the government.

Ill give a single example of 3 now convicted and 2 more awaiting trial Alaska state lawmakers of taking bribes from an oil services company executive. Interesting to know what this otherwise "gentile" man is noted as saying on camera to a just bribed lawmaker...
"I own your a$$ now, hell I own this whole state"
Its not just the zionists Lasher. It is humans in general.

They don't persecute innocent people they have driven off their own lands.

Yeah, ever heard of the Italian lobby? The long suspected sicilian mafia funded lobby group that has prevented the change or abolishment of Columbus day? Which can easily be viewed as a celebration of Columbus showing up in America and the nearly entire destruction of the long established Native Americans here that came as a result of European exploitation.