California Proposition 8

[Sihouette]

lol... good one PC

Education often broadens the mind to the point where a person doesn't need to dictate to others to feel secure.

The thing about hypocrites is...

Hey mare, if you really educate yourself about human reproduction you will discover another taboo that really doesn't make all that much "sense" from a "broader perspective". Young women reach the age of bearing children anywhere from as young as 9 to 15 or thereabouts. Many cultures across the world recognize the time just after a girl's first period as the age where she may be approached for sex by men, either in the form of marriage or sexual initiation rites and so on.

Tell me oh broadened one, would you feel the need to dictate to men in our country who seek to have sex with underaged girls, to tell them this isn't all right, even in spite of your education about female reproduction? And if so, why the sudden change of heart? Oh, and you're not allowed to conveniently cite existing law as the means of your excuse since your group is saying existing law as pertains to your particular "stance" on human sexuality as to marriage is unacceptable.

I await your answer oh enlightened one..

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Hey mare, if you really educate yourself about human reproduction you will discover another taboo that really doesn't make all that much "sense" from a "broader perspective". Young women reach the age of bearing children anywhere from as young as 9 to 15 or thereabouts. Many cultures across the world recognize the time just after a girl's first period as the age where she may be approached for sex by men, either in the form of marriage or sexual initiation rites and so on.

Tell me oh broadened one, would you feel the need to dictate to men in our country who seek to have sex with underaged girls, to tell them this isn't all right, even in spite of your education about female reproduction? And if so, why the sudden change of heart? Oh, and you're not allowed to conveniently cite existing law as the means of your excuse since your group is saying existing law as pertains to your particular "stance" on human sexuality as to marriage is unacceptable.

I await your answer oh enlightened one..

I will speak to you as if I am teaching a pig to sing. You don't post to me to learn or discuss, you do so to harrass--which is okay as long as everyone else realizes what you are doing.

First, I may use the current law because it is the law. The fact that it is unfairly applied to one group of consenting adults on the basis of religious dogma has nothing to do with the age of the people involved. This is just another dim attempt on your part to muddy the issue with irrelevancies.

So, I gather that on the basis of your experiences with animals, you are advocating breeding female humans right after menarche so as to get the maximum breeding capabilities out of each one. Your contention seems to be that human girls are just like the animals you abuse for money--but such is not the fact.

We have a large body of scientific evidence to show that sex at too early an age has a devastating effect on children of both sexes. I know, I know, you don't believe in science. I am curious though, is there any age below which you would NOT advocate breeding human females if they had passed menarche? I know of a 5 year old who was impregnated, that work for you?

One of the things we have discovered is that the age of menarche in girls residing in "developed" countries is going down, as you note some girls are reaching this point by age 8-9, some even lower. This does not seem to be happening with domesticated animals however. So breeding domesticated animals when they come into estrous may be alright--I'm not a fan of the meat industry so I will not comment further on their behavior at this time.

So, why is it that girls are maturing younger and younger? Two things appear to be working synergistically to produce this effect. The lack of darkness, the near endless light that we subject ourselves to has the unexpected effect of making girls mature faster. The other is the soup of fat-soluble chemicals in which we live (chlordane, heptachlor, DDT, dioxin, and thousands more) all behave like female hormones when they are in the human body. Polychlorinated biphenyls are particularly bad because of their ubiquity and the long life in the environment. We know that exposure to these chemicals in utero can cause major damage to fetal development patterns. Male fetuses are feminized and female fetuses exhibit precocious puberty. Rats have about the same rate of homosexuality as humans, but if a pregnant rat is exposed to dioxin in the smallest doses we can measure, then her pups will exhibit higher rates of homosexual behavior when they become sexually mature. You continually try to make biology and endocrinology into simple issues and they are not.


What happens is that girls are becoming fertile before their bodies have developed full growth, the pelvis is too small for a safe birth and they are not mature enough emotionally to deal with the vast changes brought on by motherhood. All of this is very dangerous to the girls involved and letting men have sex with them as you recommend is a terrible idea.

As far as other countries where they do these things, well, I'm not there so I can't say too much about it. But I would remind you that many of those countries have high rates of deaths during births by young brides, many of those cultures have little or no regard for the value of women in general and do female circumcisions, sew vaginas shut after births, and other pleasant things--clitoridectomies come to mind. I doubt that even you would advocate that kind of thing being done to women.

Your endless insistence that animal sex and human sexuality are identical is palpable nonsense, there are simularities but they are not the same.

 

[Sihouette]

Sounds like you're doing a fancy-dance around the fact that you're dictating to another based on your own preconceptions.

Like I said...the thing about hypocrites is...

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Sounds like you're doing a fancy-dance around the fact that you're dictating to another based on your own preconceptions.

Like I said...the thing about hypocrites is...

It's not enough that you abuse animals, now you are arguing for the abuse of little girls too.

You didn't answer my question: is there any age below which you would NOT advocate breeding human females if they had passed menarche?

Pigs can't be taught to sing.

 

[SapphireJinx]

OK, let's agree that all animals including humans have a somewhat nebulous "drive" sexually that can just be quanitfied as "horny" in layman's terms, that can also be a form of domination.

No, let's not agree. Yes, nearly all animals seem to have the instinct to procreate. However, your anthropomorphism of animal emotions--and especially your apparent confusion concerning the differences between procreation and domination--is entirely of your own making.

Add that to the fact that young human mammals are THE most malleable of all species

And you come by this scientific knowledge... how? Enlighten me. Pretend I am a layperson.

and have one of the longest childhood/adolescent malleability periods of any species that if you introduce into their world of "norms" the "norm" of dismembering your body parts to try to play at the other gender

I don't think going through years of trauma, counseling, and listening to the medical advice of one or more doctors and/or psychiatrists is playing. Or maybe we just have different ideas of what is fun. Maybe you think it's fun. And since Mare seems unwilling to repeat it (who can blame her), the penis is neither 'dismembered', nor 'chopped off'. It is inverted to form the closest approximation of a vagina that current medical science is able to replicate. It is not a procedure that is taken lightly or on a whim... unlike marriage in Vegas. But you knew that, didn't you? For some reason you seem fixated on dismemberment and disfiguration as terms for a highly complex and farking expensive medical procedure undertaken only after years of counseling and only after first exhausting every possible alternative method to reconcile the body and brain's sense of its gender with its physical configuration. And you call us deviant.

or having any number of forms of deviant sexuality paraded as "accepted and normal" then you should expect, indeed bank on that aberrant sexuality from its original purpose [for procreation] will be on the rise within the human population proportionately.

Am I to infer from your position that procreation is the only reason for having sex? Because you're certainly implying that. In that case, I urge you to write your congressional representative to put an immediate stop to marriages that occur when either party is incapable of producing offspring. After all, that is sexuality's original purpose, and any 'deviation' from that purpose is abberant.

So...

The real debate isn't centered around whether or not sexual-preference among humans is malleable and socially transmittable up to an adult age where it appears to become fixed like many other human behaviors, the real debate is whether or not this is OK with you.

And you seem to be ignorant of the fact that sexual-preference is NOT fixed, even at adulthood. It is capable of changing over time, and often does. So what! If it's not OK with you, then don't change your sexual preference. Simple as that. Leave the rest of us alone.

We're barking up the wrong tree.

Is that some sort of veiled personal attack that I'm using a dog as my avatar?

XD

I'm kidding...

And anyone on the GLBT etc. side of the fence who dares to argue that they are wholly ignorant of the malleability of the sexual drive within social-pressure parameters, I offer again the following terminology from THEIR OWN CAMP.

Oh no, honey, I wouldn't dare argue that. I myself succumbed to societal pressures to accept the 'normal' sexuality dictated to me since birth. I accepted it for years--to my great and lasting unhappiness. The fact that I choose to reject my social conditioning now in order to be happy lends credence to your arguement... but it proves only that I am willing to face criticism from family, friends and strangers in order to be happy with who I choose to be. Yes, I said choose. It may be different for others, I am neither wise nor knowledgeable enough to say for sure one way or the other. But because I choose to be happy, I am better able to be happy for others and in general increase the satisfaction level of the people in my life. If that makes me a deviant in your eyes, then I accept the label proudly and without apologies. Because believe me sister, coming from you it's a compliment.

 

[PLC1]

Here is an interesting little aside about animals and homosexuality:

Gay Penguins Raise Chick Together in German Zoo

BERLIN — A German zoo says a pair of gay male penguins are raising a chick from an egg abandoned by its parents.

Schoene said the male birds, named Z and Vielpunkt, are one of three same-sex pairs among the zoo's 20 Humboldt penguins that have attempted to mate.

Homosexual behavior has been documented in many animal species.

 

[Sihouette]

It's not enough that you abuse animals, now you are arguing for the abuse of little girls too

Remaking reality in your life isn't limited to altering your gender is it Mare? FYI to anyone reading your replies, you are as about as dishonest as a person could get. I wonder if your level of dishonesty also extends to your own with yourself?

The thing is about clever people...when they go to see even psychiatrists, they can learn to play on their compassion. They can manipulate their own shrink in other words by saying the "right" things at the right time to give a certain impression...the impression they want.

I'm sure you're aware and were aware long ago that in order to get "the operation", you HAD to convince mental-health professionals that you were "sane" and really, truly, totally and "honestly" having a "real" gender crisis. You know that's part of the protocol. Everybody knows that. So I wonder if a person like you, clever, got it in his head that he wanted to be a female because it got him certain attention? favors? away from the pressures of being male?, could put on a convincing enough act to fool professionals into granting him the permission?

Just go back and look at how you twist my words, for example. Look at the blatant attempt above. I'm sure and have seen that you are capable of more subtle evasions but I also understand that I'm directly confronting some of your deeper issues so you're bound to make a blunder like the one above when rattled.

I wonder if your shrinks could get a gander at this thread and read all your responses, your defenses, and particularly the one below, if they would still grant you the clearance today to mutilate your body to play at being a girl?

Several things. I would never be able to be truly myself as long as I had a penis, a penis means you're a man. If you get arrested and you have a penis you go into the drunk tank with the men, T-girls like myself have been beaten and raped to death in US jails. I'm not a man, I have breasts, I look like a woman, I feel like a woman, and I have no use for a penis...

.. PLUSSES: fewer birthday and Christmas presents to buy (no brothers), I get to be who I feel like I am every day, no depression, no hopelessness, less body hair (ugh!), JOY, happiness, satisfaction, peace of mind, pretty clothes, perfume, fun shoes, no insane, endless, my-dick-is-bigger-than-yours male competition, social life, no suicidal ideation, much more capacity to interact with the world, no self-hatred, loving myself, being happy with who I see in the mirror every day, the camaraderie of women, less interaction with men, no more struggles to behave like a man so that men wouldn't beat the sh1t out of me for being queer..

MINUSES..still have all the light colored beard hair that the lasers wouldn't destroy, need electrolysis to remove the rest...my voice is too deep, my feet are too big, my arms too long and my hands too big for comfort as a woman, I lost the ability to have sex due to damage during the surgery, after 5 years I still have neuropathy (nerve pain), and no matter what I do I'll never be a man or a woman since I was born somewhere out in the middle between the two.~ Mare, page 20

From the university class I took on psychology, in which I received a 4.0 [A+], I could deduce from your very own honest [apparently you are capable] words that you don't understand what being female is. Your choice of nutshelling being "female" by defining it as the pursuit of "pretty clothes, perfume, fun shoes" means that you aren't operating well in terms of reality when it comes to women. You are more into sexualized and surficial role-playing than facing reality. Society itself may be to blame for your confusion. I'll grant you that one for sure. [and hence my arguments herein against redefining marriage].

Your mentioning having to vie for penis size with your male peers is another HUGE red flag. I feel certain that if your shrinks read just that passage alone, among many other revealing ones throughout this thread, your surgery would not have been granted.

 

[Sihouette]

no more struggles to behave like a man so that men wouldn't beat the sh1t out of me for being queer..

..And to highlight your own delusion and confusion further, readers should know that not only do you admit here to being a gay man, but that you married a woman and from last report are still married to her and "in love" with her today.

I asked you in all sincerity if that meant you thought of yourself now as a lesbian, since we define a lesbian as one woman who partners with another either sexually or in a marriage arrangement. Again, I'm not being cheeky one iota and am dead serious, I want to know since you now refer to yourself as a woman, how it is you are with another woman in a relationship and not think of yourself now as a lesbian? Your reply to me as I recall was one along the lines of "you're so stupid Sil, if you can't understand the answer to the question there's no point in my explaining it to you" [paraphrased]....which is of course your defense against explaining it to yourself instead..

From all accounts it can be seen that the procedure you were erroneously granted has only served to heighten your confusion about who you are and what your real role is in this world. I feel like suing your shrinks on your behalf since I'm not quite sure you are able to see the damage that was actually done. I don't think you will ever allow yourself to see that.

 

[Sihouette]

PC, do you understand why homosexuality occurs across many species?

Suffice it to say that across many species, AI specialists have found that sexuality and indeed therefore sexual-"identity" [identifying] can be manipulated and skewed from its natural course [attraction to the opposite gender for procreation purposes] up until an age just post-adolescence.

Again, to belabor the point until it sinks in... there are many and complex factors that affect sexual preference/gender identity coming from environmental cues that guide the sexual drive in a given direction to fixate on a certain course that eventually becomes permanent or somewhat permanent. More complexity. Frustration [lack of access to opposite gender], inappropriate exposure and even social pressures take their toll on forming the individual's sexual preference.

There are genuine cases of hermaphrodytism and these cases would further confuse the matrix within which sexual-preference originates. Given the clues however that Mare has dropped about himself, I'm leaning towards psychological issues being at the cause of his self-mutilation.

If we have an industry [like/approve of it or not...I like Colbert's funny retort: "The market has spoken"] that has demonstrated day in and day out ad nauseum that sexual-direction can be manipulated with some ease, "imprinted" on a given individual across species to the trainers desire, we had better sit up and take notice. You add to that the findings of Pfuas et al. that this imprinting has a social-pressure component, you'd better really think about how normalizing learned "other-than" sexuality will affect future generations. Consult with anthropology, consult with comparative psychology, consult with sociology and all the other sciences. Google the hell out of it until your fingers bleed but do not dismiss entire fields of study and indeed a performing industry in your hast to be "politically correct".

Fearlessly and in the private of your own space draw your own conclusions after exhaustive searching..

 

[top gun]

True about the tattoo thing. I remember a phase back in the early '90s where every woman I knew was getting a "tramp stamp"..lol..

Now they regret it as they get into their 40s and 50s and it just looks...ugh..

I'm sure at the time though they were utterly into it and believed it was perfectly OK to do. I hear the pain of getting them removed is difficult. Which makes me think that people don't always have the best wisdom about what they do to their bodies when they are under the age of say, 50.

I remember how the tatoo thing came about too. One or two women on MTV or in some magazine sported them, then came the social butterflies of a town who had to always be on the cuttinge edge of the latest trends. Then pretty much every girl I saw had the "stamp" or some other tatoo done discreetly somewhere else..and ankle band, a wrist band and so on..

That's just how it goes in human societies, things not natural to people and later regretted are done and others imitate it like wildfire. It's the darndest thing...

You had to really stretch to appear less knowledgeable about anything than you do on human sexuality... but hey you surprised me... you reached it.

The point is this is America where we are free to make our own choices good or bad. That's the whole point. If there was only one choice then there would be no choice.

I've got old time friend bikers that will die hard core bikers and absolutely would not change that for the world. I have business associate friends that when they stop by my home and run into my biker buddies think "Look at those wholigans... and my biker buddies say " Look at those wimps".

See in your world if one doesn't conform to what YOU think is normal you bash it... or try and limit it's happiness even though it's happiness has no burden on you at all.

That's a shame for you because by judging like that you limit yourself to a lot of goodness that is in all types of people. It creates a lonely and grouchy nature. Kind of a Mr. Wilson from Dennis the Menis effect.

That's not pretty... and you can't cover it up like you can a butt tattoo. Think about it...

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Here is an interesting little aside about animals and homosexuality:

Gay Penguins Raise Chick Together in German Zoo

There is a fine work detailing the research that has been done on animal sexuality: BIOLOGICAL EXUBERANCE Animal Homosexualiy and Natural Diversity by Bruce Bagemihl which details the work of thousands of researchers. But books like this cannot be used in schools because the Siho's of the world cannot deal with the truth.

 

[top gun]

Did you get your adam's apple shaved too like some transexuals do or is it still quite obvious that you are a transsexual?

Note to Ann Coulter: You can get that shaved.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Remaking reality in your life isn't limited to altering your gender is it Mare? FYI to anyone reading your replies, you are as about as dishonest as a person could get. I wonder if your level of dishonesty also extends to your own with yourself?

The thing is about clever people...when they go to see even psychiatrists, they can learn to play on their compassion. They can manipulate their own shrink in other words by saying the "right" things at the right time to give a certain impression...the impression they want.

I'm sure you're aware and were aware long ago that in order to get "the operation", you HAD to convince mental-health professionals that you were "sane" and really, truly, totally and "honestly" having a "real" gender crisis. You know that's part of the protocol. Everybody knows that. So I wonder if a person like you, clever, got it in his head that he wanted to be a female because it got him certain attention? favors? away from the pressures of being male?, could put on a convincing enough act to fool professionals into granting him the permission?

Just go back and look at how you twist my words, for example. Look at the blatant attempt above. I'm sure and have seen that you are capable of more subtle evasions but I also understand that I'm directly confronting some of your deeper issues so you're bound to make a blunder like the one above when rattled.

I wonder if your shrinks could get a gander at this thread and read all your responses, your defenses, and particularly the one below, if they would still grant you the clearance today to mutilate your body to play at being a girl?

Tee hee, hoist on your own petard, I have taken part in a number of research studies in which my volume of writings have been the main contribution. The various mental health professionals I have seen have ALL seen my writings, I organize well on paper so it's a valuable source of information for them.

Go back and read you last post about men having sex with 8-9 year old girls based on your observation of other countries that do so and because you are involved in animals being treated that way. You called me a hypocrite because I DON'T advocate child molestation or abuse. You may indeed be so twisted that when you die they won't even have to dig a hole to bury you, they'll just be able to screw you into the ground.

From the university class I took on psychology, in which I received a 4.0 [A+], I could deduce from your very own honest [apparently you are capable] words that you don't understand what being female is. Your choice of nutshelling being "female" by defining it as the pursuit of "pretty clothes, perfume, fun shoes" means that you aren't operating well in terms of reality when it comes to women. You are more into sexualized and surficial role-playing than facing reality. Society itself may be to blame for your confusion. I'll grant you that one for sure. [and hence my arguments herein against redefining marriage].

Your mentioning having to vie for penis size with your male peers is another HUGE red flag. I feel certain that if your shrinks read just that passage alone, among many other revealing ones throughout this thread, your surgery would not have been granted.

Repeat yourself much? You posted this same argument before, it was stupid then, it's worse now. Taking things out of context is a good way to spin the meaning when you don't have any valid information and you know you're not only losing the discussion but that you are making yourself look really sick. You probably should make a post where you admit that your idea of 8-9 year old girls having sex with adult males isn't really what you believe in. As it is you look pretty twisted, kind of like that guy arguing for the end of the age of consent.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

..And to highlight your own delusion and confusion further, readers should know that not only do you admit here to being a gay man, but that you married a woman and from last report are still married to her and "in love" with her today.

Nice try, Si, nothing in the original statement would lead one to believe that I was admitting to being gay, though I was often accused of it. Just like you seem to be doing right now. But you contradict yourself somewhat since you go on to say that I married a woman and have remained married to her, and that I love her. Do gay guys do that? So which is it? Am I a gay guy or a lesbian? Does it matter? The truth is that when dealing with trans people the black and white labels don't work. You're a hoot, Si, you paint yourself into a corner and then cut off the branch you're sitting on.

I asked you in all sincerity if that meant you thought of yourself now as a lesbian, since we define a lesbian as one woman who partners with another either sexually or in a marriage arrangement. Again, I'm not being cheeky one iota and am dead serious, I want to know since you now refer to yourself as a woman, how it is you are with another woman in a relationship and not think of yourself now as a lesbian? Your reply to me as I recall was one along the lines of "you're so stupid Sil, if you can't understand the answer to the question there's no point in my explaining it to you" [paraphrased]....which is of course your defense against explaining it to yourself instead..

I don't think you ever posted something to me in which you were sincere--ever. What difference does the label make? You have over and over again insinuated that I am a "mutilated" man, therefore I can't be a lesbian BY YOUR OWN DEFINITION. Can one be accurately labeled as having a sexual orientation if one has never had sex? I never had gay sex before I had surgery, I've never had sex at all since surgery, you know it all Siho, run out into the barn and figure out whether I'm gay or straight or... You may not be stupid, but your posts certainly paint you as being so.

..From all accounts it can be seen that the procedure you were erroneously granted has only served to heighten your confusion about who you are and what your real role is in this world. I feel like suing your shrinks on your behalf since I'm not quite sure you are able to see the damage that was actually done. I don't think you will ever allow yourself to see that.

Ignorance is bliss isn't it, Siho? Your pop psych eval of me based on a class you claim to have taken (we know you lied about your biology education) is self-serving. Had you actually learned anything in the class you would know that you can't do an accurate evaluation without speaking to the person or knowing anything about their medical history. Your whole approach on this thread has devolved into a long diatribe against me personally because you are mad that I have shown your lack of education again and again on a wide range of issues.

Go for it, Si, you can't say anything to me that my brothers haven't already said (and my little brother has a Master's Degree in Psychology so he isn't near as ignorant as you are) and I tie him in knots when he gives me grief.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

There are genuine cases of hermaphrodytism and these cases would further confuse the matrix within which sexual-preference originates. Given the clues however that Mare has dropped about himself, I'm leaning towards psychological issues being at the cause of his self-mutilation.

So in this post I'm a gay guy, right Siho? In the last post I thought you said I was a lesbian?

If we have an industry [like/approve of it or not...I like Colbert's funny retort: "The market has spoken"]

The market has asked for pornographic videos of children too, and insane violence, does that make the "market" your god? It would appear so.

that has demonstrated day in and day out ad nauseum that sexual-direction can be manipulated with some ease, "imprinted" on a given individual across species to the trainers desire, we had better sit up and take notice. You add to that the findings of Pfuas et al. that this imprinting has a social-pressure component, you'd better really think about how normalizing learned "other-than" sexuality will affect future generations. Consult with anthropology, consult with comparative psychology, consult with sociology and all the other sciences. Google the hell out of it until your fingers bleed but do not dismiss entire fields of study and indeed a performing industry in your hast to be "politically correct".

Fearlessly and in the private of your own space draw your own conclusions after exhaustive searching..

Excellent advice, but unlike the articles that Siho posted previously one needs to actually READ the article. Siho posted a number of articles whose titles suggested agreement with her viewpoint, but upon reading it turns out that they demonstrated over and over again that she had no valid basis for her ideas.