California Proposition 8

[Dawkinsrocks]

Whether gayness is learned or genetic is easily decided.

All you do is find a set of identical male twins where one is gay and the other is straight.

If you can find that then it is pretty conclusive that gay people learn it.

I realise that not finding this cannot prove that it is genetic but one of each would prove that it is learned.

I am willing to bet that such a counter example does not exist.

But if gayness is learned why do so few people learn it?

The argument about protecting children from this 'learning' is disingenuous.

It is the smokescreen that all people hide behind when they are bereft of fact and reason.

Most incidences of paedophilia are heterosexual anyway so if anything children need a lot more protection from straight people than they do from gay people.

 

[Andy]

This is a great thread. I love it when the left all attack each other.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

This is a great thread. I love it when the left all attack each other.

Yeah, and it's pretty funny when all the Bible-beaters together can't make a single rational argument.

It's a funny world.

 

[Sihouette]

Whether gayness is learned or genetic is easily decided.

All you do is find a set of identical male twins where one is gay and the other is straight.

If you can find that then it is pretty conclusive that gay people learn it.~dawk

Uh...

Male or female will do. And if you read back this admittedly long thread, you will find where I told of a set of identical female twins where one is a hetero as an adult and the other homosexual.

So, therefore, gayness is "acquired" after birth and not genetic..

 

[Segep]

Uh...

Male or female will do. And if you read back this admittedly long thread, you will find where I told of a set of identical female twins where one is a hetero as an adult and the other homosexual.

So, therefore, gayness is "acquired" after birth and not genetic..

uh...

Better bone up on your statistics theory, pardner. One example does not a sufficient sample size make.


And hey. Let's accept for a minute that you are 100% correct that gayness is "acquired". So what? Maybe I enjoy smoking a big fat juicy "cigar" once in a while. How does that hurt you?

Answer: it doesn't. Prove to me beyond the shadow of a doubt that I directly harmed you or your family and I will go directly to anti-gay camp (and reconvert everyone ). Before I posted in this forum you didn't even know I existed, let alone that I like more kinds of sausages besides Jimmy Dean. So quit whining.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Uh...

Male or female will do. And if you read back this admittedly long thread, you will find where I told of a set of identical female twins where one is a hetero as an adult and the other homosexual.

So, therefore, gayness is "acquired" after birth and not genetic..

And if anyone is interested there are twin studies that have actually been done on humans under scientific protocols too, which indicate a genetic influence--I've posted sources but they weren't Christian sites so Siho wouldn't look at them.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

If Silhouette says it it must be true.

Funny how the invented example of the twins suits his argument.

But even if it were true females twins are not suitable examples.

Lots of women go through a 'gay phase' but are not really homosexual.

This rarely happens with men as they are far more driven by sex than women are who are often just looking for the comfort of female company and intimacy.

 

[Mr. Shaman]

And if you read back this admittedly long thread, you will find where I told of a set of identical female twins where one is a hetero as an adult and the other homosexual.

So, therefore, gayness is "acquired" after birth and not genetic..

Therefore, huh?

So, you can explain the mechanics of how this transpires??? ​

 

[top gun]

Sihouette;79700]That is your opinion. What hurts and doesn't hurt is a highly subjective subject..

I would venture to say that the majority of Californians voted down gay marriage because they subjectively perceived that society condoning gay sexual unions might set an example for kids to follow that places them emulating a new set of edicts that would quietly (yet potently) promote homosexuality.

The reason the measure passed was mainly do to a HUGE fear mongering media blitz by church groups... millions of dollars spent.

We will see if in the long run this measure isn't either nullified by the courts or brought back up for another vote. I personally believe this will happen and the measured will be overturned one way or another.

As far as being "subjective" it's really not on any measurable, testable grounds. Now someone can oppose it because of religious reasons... but the clinical evidence clearly shows no harm to society or to children. And the States that allow it have show no ill effects whatsoever.

Except maybe for an influx of cash by people going there to get married.

It amuses me when I see this kind of homophobia because not being gay the issue affects me directly in no way. But as I consider other people's feelings I cannot justify limiting a legal monogamous partnership between 2 consenting adults. It just seems so stupid.

As far as how the law should be written I already posted that. Try to stay on track. It's about gay marriage... not pedophilia, bestiality, bigamy or polygamy.

Any two consenting adults over the age of 18 can enter into a legally binding marriage contract and obtain the rights and responsibilities contained therein. All adults who want to adopt children or have children are under the jurisdiction and all the rules contained therein of Domestic Court.

Same-Sex Marriage is Already a Reality, Regardless of Whether the Government Chooses to Acknowledge It

From the colonial era until the Supreme Court's decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), same-sex relations were illegal in (initially) all or (later) most of the United States. Shortly after the Lawrence decision, Late Night with Conan O'Brien aired a satirical clip in which actors portraying a flamboyantly gay couple expressed their delight at finally being able to have sexual relations, since they had lived in total celibacy out of fear of breaking the law. And it was a valid point: Sodomy (or "unnatural intercourse") laws were flouted long before they were ever officially struck from the books.

State bans on gay sex were ineffective at banning gay sex, and state bans on gay marriage are equally ineffective at preventing lesbian and gay couples from having weddings, exchanging rings, and spending the rest of their lives together. State bans on gay marriage can't prevent a lesbian or gay couple's family or friends from describing them as married. It can't prevent proposals, tuxedos and gowns, honeymoons, anniversaries. Just as African-American couples of the slavery and Reconstruction era happily "jumped the broom" and got married in states that did not recognize their unions as valid, lesbian and gay couples are getting married every day. The government can't prevent that.

All it can prevent is hospital visitation, inheritance, and the thousands of other small legal perks that ordinarily come with marriage. It can, in short, take petty measures to punish committed lesbian and gay couples for their monogamy, for their willingness to commit to each other for life--but it can't do anything to prevent these unions from taking place.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

The reason the measure passed was mainly do to a HUGE fear mongering media blitz by church groups... millions of dollars spent.

We will see if in the long run this measure isn't either nullified by the courts or brought back up for another vote. I personally believe this will happen and the measured will be overturned one way or another.

As far as being "subjective" it's really not on any measurable, testable grounds. Now someone can oppose it because of religious reasons... but the clinical evidence clearly shows no harm to society or to children. And the States that allow it have show no ill effects whatsoever.

Except maybe for an influx of cash by people going there to get married.

It amuses me when I see this kind of homophobia because not being gay the issue affects me directly in no way. But as I consider other people's feelings I cannot justify limiting a legal monogamous partnership between 2 consenting adults. It just seems so stupid.

As far as how the law should be written I already posted that. Try to stay on track. It's about gay marriage... not pedophilia, bestiality, bigamy or polygamy.

Any two consenting adults over the age of 18 can enter into a legally binding marriage contract and obtain the rights and responsibilities contained therein. All adults who want to adopt children or have children are under the jurisdiction and all the rules contained therein of Domestic Court.

Same-Sex Marriage is Already a Reality, Regardless of Whether the Government Chooses to Acknowledge It

From the colonial era until the Supreme Court's decision in Lawrence v. Texas (2003), same-sex relations were illegal in (initially) all or (later) most of the United States. Shortly after the Lawrence decision, Late Night with Conan O'Brien aired a satirical clip in which actors portraying a flamboyantly gay couple expressed their delight at finally being able to have sexual relations, since they had lived in total celibacy out of fear of breaking the law. And it was a valid point: Sodomy (or "unnatural intercourse") laws were flouted long before they were ever officially struck from the books.

State bans on gay sex were ineffective at banning gay sex, and state bans on gay marriage are equally ineffective at preventing lesbian and gay couples from having weddings, exchanging rings, and spending the rest of their lives together. State bans on gay marriage can't prevent a lesbian or gay couple's family or friends from describing them as married. It can't prevent proposals, tuxedos and gowns, honeymoons, anniversaries. Just as African-American couples of the slavery and Reconstruction era happily "jumped the broom" and got married in states that did not recognize their unions as valid, lesbian and gay couples are getting married every day. The government can't prevent that.

All it can prevent is hospital visitation, inheritance, and the thousands of other small legal perks that ordinarily come with marriage. It can, in short, take petty measures to punish committed lesbian and gay couples for their monogamy, for their willingness to commit to each other for life--but it can't do anything to prevent these unions from taking place.

Very nice post, Top, great summation about the pettiness of denying legal rights as a way of punishment.

 

[Sihouette]

You guys still cannot, or rather will not, wrap your heads around the fact that it isn't about punishment and is instead about setting precidents and moral "oks" to subsequent generations.

Most people know that humans learn socially and that our very "reality" can be modified by trends. The majority of people who voted against gay marriage didn't want to "punish" anyone...they wanted to prevent gayness from being seen as normalized to our young people. We understand everything put forth in that quote. We just don't want gayness normalized via marriage.

It isn't normal, it's deviant. Putting the stamp of normalcy on gayness would send the wrong message to youth about deviant behaviors.

Like I said, you won't accept that. It sounds better to your cause to play victims instead of perpetrators, recruiters..which is what this whole gay marriage thing is really all about.. The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights moans about the sorry numbers of gay people and covertly urges gays to recruit. Gay marriage is about normalizing gayness and getting it to be a trend for others (impressionable adolescents) to follow. A covert recruitment drive with the banner of "victim" flown in the advancing lines..

Wait, let me guess...because I and others astutely observe this fact, we're homophobes right? Wrong. There is the clarity of truth and it can withstand all assaults, even cowardly name-calling to divert the subject it exposes..

 

[Segep]

You guys still cannot, or rather will not, wrap your heads around the fact that it isn't about punishment and is instead about setting precidents and moral "oks" to subsequent generations.

And you cannot or will not wrap your head around the fact that there is nothing moral about gayness anymore than there is something moral about blue eyes or brown hair.

Most people know that humans learn socially and that our very "reality" can be modified by trends. The majority of people who voted against gay marriage didn't want to "punish" anyone...they wanted to prevent gayness from being seen as normalized to our young people. We understand everything put forth in that quote. We just don't want gayness normalized via marriage.

So the hundreds of mammalian and avian species that exhibit homosexuality are influenced by trends?

It isn't normal, it's deviant. Putting the stamp of normalcy on gayness would send the wrong message to youth about deviant behaviors.

I'll tell you what's deviant. Deviant is condemning an entire group of people and disparaging them because you don't understand what makes gay people gay.

Like I said, you won't accept that.

Damn skippy.

It sounds better to your cause to play victims instead of perpetrators, recruiters..which is what this whole gay marriage thing is really all about..

Oh, brother. Here we go again. I am not recruiting you or anyone else. I have a partner, thank you.

The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights moans about the sorry numbers of gay people and covertly urges gays to recruit.

No, it doesn't. If you'd read the article with any comprehension, you'd realize that it moans about the exact opposite.

10 reasons gays chase straights: we've all done it, and some of us do it over and over again. What leads lesbian and gay grown-ups to abandon reason and pursue the sexually unobtainable? (Commentary).

Notice the headline of the article claims that gays who chase straights are abandoning reason.

1 EVERYONE IS STRAIGHT

...With such a thick coat of heterosexual whitewash splashed over every sexual image, it takes a powerfully queer imagination--and sometimes many nights at Crazy Nanny's or the Spike, or years in therapy--to construct an object of desire that's truly our own, fully hetero-free.

...it's a reminder that for a shocking number of people in this culture, gay people just don't exist. Who else are we supposed to find attractive when we're living in a gay-free zone?

Let me boil that down for you in language you can understand. The number one reason gays chase straights is because most of us are invisible, and also because for the most part the only role models we have are super-hunky, uber-straight macho men.

2 EVERYONE CAN BE HAD

...The myth of the "do-able" hetero--or its twin fable, the deep closet case just waiting for the right same-sex key to unlock them--is everywhere in gay culture....

...But the next time you set your sight on some hetero eye candy, ask yourself something first: What kind of opposite-sex invitation would you need to make you switch teams?

Notice it states clearly that this is a myth. Why does it exist? I don't know. I didn't start it. I'm not even a part of "mainstream" gay culture. It goes on to say that getting someone to "switch teams" is totally unrealistic.

3 WE SAW THEM FIRST

What stirs in us our first same-sex attractions, our first crushes? For most budding gay and lesbian kids becoming aware of their sexuality, it's the straight schoolmates who surround them. As the wise devil Hannibal Lecter said in The Silence of the Lambs, we begin by coveting what we see every day. A quick glance at the person next to you in the locker room or a late-night conversation about sex during a sleepover with a best friend--those experiences confirmed for us what we wanted and whom we would become.

But for many of us, those moments also confirmed the fear that we were the only ones like ourselves, since as far as we knew, every object of our burning desire was straight. As adults we learn that's not the case, but the allure of that initial magnetism is difficult to shake, and it's bound to haunt our dreams and fantasies for the rest of our lives.

Translation: for most of us growing up, we only knew other straight people. Pay attention to the language used. Words like fear and haunt are not positive terms.

4 THEY LOVE THE ATTENTION

Straight people, like all of us, enjoy being lifted onto an ardent admirer's pedestal. With that in mind, some of them know that there's a wealth of wooing to be had if they flirt-even if only ever so slightly--with their gay friends. A straight lipstick-lesbian look-alike will lean in and coo, "What's it really like to be with a lady?" Or your married racquetball partner at the gym will declare between serves, "You look pretty good in those shorts."

...As soon as you misread fishing for compliments as fishing for a fling, that power shifts to the straight person, and you may find yourself hooked on your own line.

Again, the author of the article seems to be advising against it.

5 THEY'RE THE "REAL THING"

Call it gender stereo-typing or internalized homophobia or whatever you like, but the socially accepted definitions of man and woman have been heterosexualized for millennia, with the occasional Greek vase or Michelangelo statue as the exceptions that prove the role. What does "straight-acting" mean if not that heterosexuals own the patent on men who are masculine and women who are feminine?

...It may take some effort for gays and lesbians to embrace our inner sissy boy and bull dagger, but that's the best first step in shedding our fantasy life of culturally imposed restrictions. After all, much of the time "straight-acting" is also just plain straight. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

The author is telling us to shed the fantasy that we can be like them and to embrace our own kind.

In the interest of brevity, I will shorten the rest of this. But you can find this article yourself in the library or online if you really have an interest--which I doubt.

6 IT'S SAFE

That assertion seems counterintuitive, but it's often true: Chasing after the straight ones gives us all the pleasures of fixation without the danger of consummation, the risks of a relationship....

7 ATTRACTION KNOWS NO BOUNDS If you see a hot number across the room or down the street, it's probably not the person's sexual orientation that first got your attention....

8 WE'RE LOOKING FOR NORMAL

In a world where there's Halle Berry, your dad might say, it just doesn't seem normal for a guy to be hung up on Adrien Brody. And why would a girl want to trade blood vials with Angelina Jolie when she can exchange rings with her own personal Matt Damon? It's one of the most frustrating things about being queer--when folks like clergy or family try to make you explain it, you can't.... So when some well-meaning person assures you, "You just haven't met the right guy/girl yet," part of you feels like they might actually be telling the truth. That's how the trouble starts. The land of everyone else's normal may not be the home at the end of your world, but they do such a sales job for it from the moment we're born that we may start to buy in.

You meet somebody of the opposite sex; they're charming and funny and attractive; you hit it off. There's even a bit of sexual sizzle in the air. Now you start to wonder, Could this be the one? The man or woman they kept telling me would came along? Before you know it, you're deep in a daydream in which you get married, have children, move to a small town, and join the Kiwanis Club. Everybody likes you. You fit in. You're normal.

Hey. Snap out of it. This daydream might be normal--if you're straight. Otherwise, Far From Heaven, here we come. Stop wondering whether you want to join a club that would have somebody like you as a member. You've paid your dues already.

9 IT'S THE LURE OF THE FORBIDDEN

There's a reason that you're more likely to find adult videos with the phrases frat house and cop than drama club and hairdresser, or that Gina Gershon chases after the femmiest of the femme in her dyke screen roles....

We're not talking closet cases and "everyone's bisexual" here--we're talking hard-core heteros, Kinsey zeroes whose last gay thought was sandwiched between Marcia and Harden. Because true conquest is not about tapping the inner queer, it's about knocking 'em dead with your wizard-level sexual magic....

10 THERE'S MORE OF THEM THAN OF US

Statistically speaking, there's no way around it: Gay romance is a long shot. Even the best odds have straight people outnumbering us by 10 to 1. Subtract the millions of us who are out of circulation thanks to the closet or to long-term relationships, and the odds get even worse. So what are we supposed to do when those hormones hit? Save ourselves for gay marriage?

...Even if a gay Prince Charming is headed your way, how will you find him if you're wearing blinders?

The whole article argues vociferously against chasing straights. It's hardly the recruiting manual you make it out to be. Your calling it such is willfull ignorance at best, and deliberate, conscious misrepresentation to suit your own agenda at worst.

 

[Segep]

Wait, let me guess...because I and others astutely observe this fact, we're homophobes right? Wrong. There is the clarity of truth and it can withstand all assaults, even cowardly name-calling to divert the subject it exposes..

Nope. Because you and others constantly misrepresent the facts, that just makes you hopelessly and willfully ignorant. That is a condition, not a label. But thanks for playing.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

You guys still cannot, or rather will not, wrap your heads around the fact that it isn't about punishment and is instead about setting precidents and moral "oks" to subsequent generations.

Most people know that humans learn socially and that our very "reality" can be modified by trends. The majority of people who voted against gay marriage didn't want to "punish" anyone...they wanted to prevent gayness from being seen as normalized to our young people. We understand everything put forth in that quote. We just don't want gayness normalized via marriage.

It isn't normal, it's deviant. Putting the stamp of normalcy on gayness would send the wrong message to youth about deviant behaviors.

Like I said, you won't accept that. It sounds better to your cause to play victims instead of perpetrators, recruiters..which is what this whole gay marriage thing is really all about.. The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights moans about the sorry numbers of gay people and covertly urges gays to recruit. Gay marriage is about normalizing gayness and getting it to be a trend for others (impressionable adolescents) to follow. A covert recruitment drive with the banner of "victim" flown in the advancing lines..

Wait, let me guess...because I and others astutely observe this fact, we're homophobes right? Wrong. There is the clarity of truth and it can withstand all assaults, even cowardly name-calling to divert the subject it exposes..

Siho, you still cannot, or rather will not, wrap your head around the fact that it is baseless fear that drives you, your horrific imaginings have not been realized anywhere in the world despite the fact that other countries and many cultures historically have allowed gay people to marry.

You seem to suffer from invincible ignorance, you absolutely will not look at the mountain of evidence to show that your theory has been proven to be false. All I can think at this point is that you feel now, or have felt in the past, very insecure in your own sexual orientation. In order for you to accept that other people are so easily swayed, you yourself must feel that pull very strongly. Most of us aren't like that, we know what we like and we've never been tempted by the other side. Your posts remind me of the terrible fear that many whites had about their young daughters lusting after black men, which would seem to say more about the daughters than the men, but the black men were the ones who got lynched. You and Anita Bryant should get together and go bowling, she's just as much an "all queers are child molestors" person as you are. Both of you might want to take a long hard look at yourselves and the genesis of your fears. You've posted some telling comments about sex in your life, one's that suggest a fear/fascination coupled with disgust. I don't suppose that objectifying animals and using them as biological machines to make money has done anything positive for your outlook either. The very real rape of these creatures of God has got to have a deleterious effect on your psyche eventually, no one can witness that kind of endless suffering and slaughter without being touched at least subconciously.

The Ten Reasons Gays Chase Straights moans about the sorry numbers of gay people and covertly urges gays to recruit.

I'm curious, Siho, why would they "covertly urge" others to recruit if recruiting is the natural way of homosexuals. It sounds to me like you were taken in by a piece written by someone who is as twisted as the NMBLA folks. You can't have it both ways, if we were all out to convert then no one would have to be covertly urging that kind of behavior.

Keep on repeating your same argument and maybe it will become true. Lots of luck with that, Siho.

 

[Segep]

Silo heard about the article somewhere on freeper or some other wingding site and is only repeating what he has been told. He never actually read it, because he would be terrified to be caught reading The Advocate.