Buy From China

[Dr.Who]

I hear a lot of talk about not buying from China. Some of this makes sense. If you know a product was made in a sweatshop by all means avoid it. But China is a growing economy and the tide cannot be stopped. I heard a politician today say that he would stop giving tax breaks to companies that export labor to economies where the labor is cheaper and start giving tax breaks to companies where they keep the labor here at home. First let me say that I do not want him to give tax breaks to either of them. What right has he to spend my money in either of these ways? Yes the labor there is cheaper. But as these economies grow the cost of labor will increase. We can't stop that - it is inevitable. We can be a force to shape the way the economy grows. We can refuse to buy goods that are full of lead or produced through slave labor. Beyond that we should take advantage of the cheap labor and be part of what stimulates that economy so that it can grow to be healthy and we can all benefit. If we refuse to be a part of it we will make no difference and we will lose being involved now while it is beneficial too both us and them. If they grow without us then later we will just be able to participate on their terms after the rest of the world has benefited and we were left in the dust.

We need free trade where the market forces apply pressure on China to be a healthy economy that treats it's citizens right. We do not need artificial government levies and tax breaks (pork barrelling) that help politicians more than us. And we certainly don't need politicians who just want to do something because they can, even if that something is not helpful.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

China sucks, they make crap, and If I can get something made in the US for a bit more, I will pay. My nice new Balance Running shoes...better price then most the stuff with them , better shoes...and made in the USA

 

[numinus]

I hear a lot of talk about not buying from China. Some of this makes sense. If you know a product was made in a sweatshop by all means avoid it. But China is a growing economy and the tide cannot be stopped. I heard a politician today say that he would stop giving tax breaks to companies that export labor to economies where the labor is cheaper and start giving tax breaks to companies where they keep the labor here at home. First let me say that I do not want him to give tax breaks to either of them. What right has he to spend my money in either of these ways? Yes the labor there is cheaper. But as these economies grow the cost of labor will increase.

Apparently not. The chinese economy has been growing at an average of 10% since the 70's. The advantages of a socialist economy, I think.

We can't stop that - it is inevitable.

Yes. Inevitable is an apt word to describe the chinese economic juggernaut.

We can be a force to shape the way the economy grows.

Apparently not. China was accepted in the wto precisely for the western industrialized nations to get a piece of the immense chinese market. Now one wonders just exactly who is devouring who?

We can refuse to buy goods that are full of lead or produced through slave labor. Beyond that we should take advantage of the cheap labor and be part of what stimulates that economy so that it can grow to be healthy and we can all benefit.

Exactly what the us has been doing since the 80's. This has led to the exodus of the us manufacturing sector to china and the 'little tiger' economies of asia.

If we refuse to be a part of it we will make no difference and we will lose being involved now while it is beneficial too both us and them. If they grow without us then later we will just be able to participate on their terms after the rest of the world has benefited and we were left in the dust.

The prc constitutes 1/4 of the world's population. That is an immense market sitting in a particular geo-political setting. One simply cannot forego this vast potential market. To be a player, one need to play by chinese rules.

We need free trade where the market forces apply pressure on China to be a healthy economy that treats it's citizens right.

That's the problem. Presently, the chinese economy is the best performing economy in the world, in terms of growth. It is certainly better than the us economy.

Oh, and how they treat their citizens isn't anybody's business. That's what sovereignty is all about. The same way european nations can't do anything but howl in protest over us foreign policy.

We do not need artificial government levies and tax breaks (pork barrelling) that help politicians more than us. And we certainly don't need politicians who just want to do something because they can, even if that something is not helpful.

The japanese government has always taken into consideration their manufacturing and technology sectors in formulating foreign policy. China, of course, is one big manufacturing entity -- thanks to its socialist nature.

If the us left her private businesses to fend for themselves, the outcome of this showdown is more or less a forgone conclusion.

 

[numinus]

China sucks, they make crap, and If I can get something made in the US for a bit more, I will pay. My nice new Balance Running shoes...better price then most the stuff with them , better shoes...and made in the USA

LOL.

The thing is, it isn't just a 'bit more'. Its more like a third of what you would normally pay for the same product. My chinese-assembled laptop costs 1/3 of an ibm or an apple notebook and performs just as well, if not better. This will only get better in time.

This reminds me of the common american opinion of japanese technology prior to ww2 -- an opinion that is, sadly, based on nothing more than bravado and prejudice. Now, the japanese keeps us technology a good 5 years behind their's.

So, you just go ahead and pretend what you wish. Sooner or later, china will make the us merely a source of raw materials -- the way the japanese view the us today.

 

[ilikeboobs]

LOL.

The thing is, it isn't just a 'bit more'. Its more like a third of what you would normally pay for the same product. My chinese-assembled laptop costs 1/3 of an ibm or an apple notebook and performs just as well, if not better. This will only get better in time.

This reminds me of the common american opinion of japanese technology prior to ww2 -- an opinion that is, sadly, based on nothing more than bravado and prejudice. Now, the japanese keeps us technology a good 5 years behind their's.

So, you just go ahead and pretend what you wish. Sooner or later, china will make the us merely a source of raw materials -- the way the japanese view the us today.

Ah, you are correct...although I'd wager we have the greatest military technology in the world. And that's probably part of the reason China's been spying hard on the US.

 

[numinus]

Ah, you are correct...although I'd wager we have the greatest military technology in the world.

That's the beauty of it! Why should japan pay for national defense when the nation is within the us' protective umbrella? This way, there is no need to maintain a considerable standing army. They just foot a large chunk of the bill if and when un military action becomes absolutely necessary.

And that's probably part of the reason China's been spying hard on the US.

Makes perfect sense.

It is vastly cheaper to steal technology than develop it from scratch.

Intellectual property rights have absolutely no meaning for them -- communism being directly opposed to any form of private property.

 

[Dr.Who]

If the us left her private businesses to fend for themselves, the outcome of this showdown is more or less a forgone conclusion.

If what you have been saying is true then even if the US regulates it's businesses and mandates how they will interact with China the outcome will be the same.

So rather than punishing US businesses we should let them interact in ways that they find to be most beneficial.

But I do not think all of what you are saying is true. The US can be a force for change in the world. We can even be a force for change on economies that are/will be much larger than ours.

Countries smaller than us have been engaging in free trade with us and they have benefited. We can trade with an economy larger than ours and benefit too. What we shouldn't do is punish our own businesses and weaken them in the face of other foreign businesses that will be getting stronger and stronger.

 

[numinus]

If what you have been saying is true then even if the US regulates it's businesses and mandates how they will interact with China the outcome will be the same.

So rather than punishing US businesses we should let them interact in ways that they find to be most beneficial.

But I do not think all of what you are saying is true. The US can be a force for change in the world. We can even be a force for change on economies that are/will be much larger than ours.

Countries smaller than us have been engaging in free trade with us and they have benefited. We can trade with an economy larger than ours and benefit too. What we shouldn't do is punish our own businesses and weaken them in the face of other foreign businesses that will be getting stronger and stronger.

I'm not sure what you are talking about.

US businesses are transfering whole assembly lines to other countries to take advantage of cheap labor. No developed or developing country in the region can go cheaper than the prc ($100 a month for a skilled laborer) at the same time, provide the necessary infrastructure for any modern manufacturing enterprise. How can anyone compete if the chinese government could simply set wages arbitrarily?

In the meantime, they are getting valuable capital and know-how that would eventually make them capable of manufacturing on their own.

For example, a couple of decades ago, only us companies were capable of making precise, survey-grade gps receivers. It took the japanese a decade to make their own gps brand of comparable quality. Presently, china has followed suit -- for half the price. While it is true that the quality of chinese-made gps is, at the moment, inferior -- it simply is a matter of time till they work out the kinks.

Very soon, the us would have lost an entire industry that was started by american ingenuity.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Funny because I have Running shoes made in the US, and they cost the same or less then many other running shoes by other companies made in China...and Are better made.

I go threw my tools, and oddly all the good ones say made in America...the cheap crap China...Tiawan is a step up but still not as nice as my American stuff.

China can make all the cheat crap it wants...if no one buys it, what good it is.

 

[numinus]

China sucks, they make crap, and If I can get something made in the US for a bit more, I will pay. My nice new Balance Running shoes...better price then most the stuff with them , better shoes...and made in the USA

LOL.

From wiki:

"In accordance with federal trade law and their own policies, New Balance labels all shoes with a domestic material content of 70% "Made in the USA" and will differentiate for shoes that are made in the US of imported materials. From New Balance's website: "We believe most consumers think "Made in USA" means that real manufacturing jobs were provided to U.S. workers in order to make that product. The shoes produced in our U.S. factories are made by U.S. workers using both U.S. and imported materials. Where the level of domestic value is at least 70%, we have labeled the shoe "Made in USA." Where it falls below that level, we have qualified it as containing both domestic and imported materials. This determination is based in part on a survey of consumers conducted by the FTC."

In 1994, New Balance manufactured 70% of its shoes in the United States.[2] It claims to have boosted its manufacturing capacity by 45% since 1995, suggesting that while the majority of its shoes are manufactured in China, it is maintaining a significant manufacturing presence domestically."

As I said, it is next to impossible to remain competitive by manufacturing solely in the us.

 

[numinus]

China can make all the cheat crap it wants...if no one buys it, what good it is.

Tell me, what good is a sturdy computer that would still be working after 10 years when these damn things become obsolete in 2 years or less?

This reminds me of vista -- where I can't seem to make my LISP programs run. It works perfect with xp sp2. Either technology dumbed down or its a rip-off.

 

[Andy]

Anti-Socialism

The advantages of a socialist economy, I think.

China, of course, is one big manufacturing entity -- thanks to its socialist nature.

As an anti-socialist, I'm going to shoot down that false statement.

Socialism does not work, and never has. Capitalism is how everything works. The problem now is that we have learned that Capitalism and Socialism are not completely exclusive anymore. There are examples of this here in the US too. We have Social liberals, and economic Conservatives.

This is what is happening in China. They have a socialist government, but a Capitalist economy. I refer to a Socialist website article to make my point:

China: Capitalism Doesn't Require Democracy

Although I do not support their views, this article is dead on. Now governmentally China is still a socialist country. Dissent is killed or jailed forever. Un-approved beliefs are jailed and disbanded. Families are regulated, extra children are killed.

However the reason China's economy is doing so well, is due to Capitalism. This should not be a surprise because there is no benefit to socialist economies, they never work. Capitalism is how EVERYTHING works.

Why do you go to work? To earn... capital! You go to work to earn more money than you spend doing so, that's capital. Why did the boss hire your? Because he or they, think by you working for them, they will earn more from your work, than they have to pay you to do the work... that's capital! Why did the owner invest his money into making the company? Because he believed he would earn more back from the company than he put into the company... that's capital! Capitalism is how the world works. Nothing exists aside from Capitalism.

Socialism never works. Quick question: do you know of a nation, not at war, that has a decreasing oil production? I do... Venezuela. Why? Because the government seized control of the oil fields, and without money (capital) to maintain the fields, maintain the wells, without money (capital) to explore and drill, Venezuela is one of the few nations in the world today that has dropped in domestic oil production on a yearly basis. The list of economic socialist failures could spam this whole forum. Socialism never works.

 

[numinus]

As an anti-socialist, I'm going to shoot down that false statement.

Socialism does not work, and never has. Capitalism is how everything works. The problem now is that we have learned that Capitalism and Socialism are not completely exclusive anymore. There are examples of this here in the US too. We have Social liberals, and economic Conservatives.

This is what is happening in China. They have a socialist government, but a Capitalist economy. I refer to a Socialist website article to make my point:

China: Capitalism Doesn't Require Democracy

Technically, socialism is a mode of production -- hence an economic, not political system. What they have in the prc is a dictatorship.

The economic system of the prc can never be misconstrued as capitalist since the government OWNS ALL THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.

Although I do not support their views, this article is dead on. Now governmentally China is still a socialist country. Dissent is killed or jailed forever. Un-approved beliefs are jailed and disbanded. Families are regulated, extra children are killed.

However the reason China's economy is doing so well, is due to Capitalism. This should not be a surprise because there is no benefit to socialist economies, they never work. Capitalism is how EVERYTHING works.

You really need to straighten out some of the words you are using. The fundamental difference between socialism and capitalism is the ownership of the means of production.

Investors in the prc's various manufacturing zones can only do business in a 50-50 partnership with the state. All major chinese manufacturing entities are state-owned.

Why do you go to work? To earn... capital! You go to work to earn more money than you spend doing so, that's capital. Why did the boss hire your? Because he or they, think by you working for them, they will earn more from your work, than they have to pay you to do the work... that's capital! Why did the owner invest his money into making the company? Because he believed he would earn more back from the company than he put into the company... that's capital! Capitalism is how the world works. Nothing exists aside from Capitalism.

No. No. No.

Money is merely a universal tool for exchange. It becomes capital only when one uses it to create more money or surplus value in a business enterprise. And for your money to create surplus, you need to join it with the labor of others -- which you buy through wages.

Now, from classical economics, input and output value must be equal -- since multiplying bread and fish is an ability reserved for the divine. And since raw materials don't multiply on its own, then profit must have come from unpaid labor.

Socialism never works. Quick question: do you know of a nation, not at war, that has a decreasing oil production? I do... Venezuela. Why? Because the government seized control of the oil fields, and without money (capital) to maintain the fields, maintain the wells, without money (capital) to explore and drill, Venezuela is one of the few nations in the world today that has dropped in domestic oil production on a yearly basis. The list of economic socialist failures could spam this whole forum. Socialism never works.

That is correct. Venezuela has a decreasing oil production because of ill-maintained refineries. This happened because the state revenues from oil is being made to subsidize domestic consumption. Without this subsidy, chavez would have lost his popularity within his political base. It is a case of profligacy in fiscal management.

That is not the case with the prc. One need only look at the state's massive investment in infrastructure to realize that their economic managers know exactly what their doing.

 

[Andy]

Technically, socialism is a mode of production -- hence an economic, not political system. What they have in the prc is a dictatorship.

The economic system of the prc can never be misconstrued as capitalist since the government OWNS ALL THE MEANS OF PRODUCTION.

You really need to straighten out some of the words you are using. The fundamental difference between socialism and capitalism is the ownership of the means of production.

Investors in the prc's various manufacturing zones can only do business in a 50-50 partnership with the state. All major chinese manufacturing entities are state-owned.



No. No. No.

Money is merely a universal tool for exchange. It becomes capital only when one uses it to create more money or surplus value in a business enterprise. And for your money to create surplus, you need to join it with the labor of others -- which you buy through wages.

Now, from classical economics, input and output value must be equal -- since multiplying bread and fish is an ability reserved for the divine. And since raw materials don't multiply on its own, then profit must have come from unpaid labor.

Ok, since you failed to get it the first time around, I'll give another link.

China's New Capitalism

I noticed you didn't provide any real reference to your claims. I will discard them as false. Further, the information I have contradicts your claim. The state run factories are failing, in the red ink, have tons of debt, and are in a dilapidated state. The reason for China's success is the Capitalistic private sector that is booming.

As for unpaid labor, that is not logical. One makes a commitment to wages for labor. If one is not being paid, one would not do the work. No one works for free, that is the back bone of Capitalism. If I don't get paid, I don't work for my company.

 

[numinus]

Ok, since you failed to get it the first time around, I'll give another link.

China's New Capitalism

I noticed you didn't provide any real reference to your claims. I will discard them as false. Further, the information I have contradicts your claim. The state run factories are failing, in the red ink, have tons of debt, and are in a dilapidated state. The reason for China's success is the Capitalistic private sector that is booming.

What nonsense.

You are not aware of the encouraged industry catalogue, the guidelines that govern direct foreign investments in china? It categorizes certain industries as encouraged, permitted, restricted or prohibited.

To give you a better appreciation of the reforms being undertaken in the prc:

http://www.answers.com/topic/economy-of-the-people-s-republic-of-china?cat=biz-fin

Chinese paramount leader Deng Xiaoping on June 30 1984 said:

"What is socialism and what is Marxism? We were not quite clear about this in the past. Marxism attaches utmost importance to developing the productive forces. We have said that socialism is the primary stage of communism and that at the advanced stage the principle of from each according to his ability and to each according to his needs will be applied. This calls for highly developed productive forces and an overwhelming abundance of material wealth. Therefore, the fundamental task for the socialist stage is to develop the productive forces. The superiority of the socialist system is demonstrated, in the final analysis, by faster and greater development of those forces than under the capitalist system. As they develop, the people's material and cultural life will constantly improve. One of our shortcomings after the founding of the People's Republic was that we didn't pay enough attention to developing the productive forces. Socialism means eliminating poverty. Pauperism is not socialism, still less communism."

And just how do you suppose is the prc undertaking the development of its productive forces, hmmm? Isn't direct foreign and state investment on its special economic zones geared towards this end?

Regardless of the amount of foreign investments in the prc, they shall ALWAYS be under the state's regulative powers. The only promise they are giving is that they will not nationalize these outright.

As for unpaid labor, that is not logical. One makes a commitment to wages for labor. If one is not being paid, one would not do the work. No one works for free, that is the back bone of Capitalism. If I don't get paid, I don't work for my company.

Sigh.

Cost of raw materials + cost of machine depreciation + wages = cost of finished product = cost of investment + profit

From the equation above, where do you suppose profit comes from, hmmm?

Certainly not from raw materials.

Certainly not from machines.

It could only come from human labor. But you have already paid for human labor through wages, haven't you? Unless...the wages are not commensurate to the amount of work done, no?

Unpaid labor -- the secret of capitalist production.