Are all believers in God automatically idol worshipers?

[judyd1]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol

The definition of an idol is a representation of something else. God is not a representation of anything else--he is the Person that people MAKE representations of.

Just because you choose not to believe in God does not make you the expert on idols, or on God himself.

Even a scientist will do many many experiments before making an informed decision. How many "experiments" have you done before coming to your "opinion" that those who believe in God are idol worshipers? Really, you haven't based your statement on anything other than your own random thoughts.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/idol

The definition of an idol is a representation of something else. God is not a representation of anything else--he is the Person that people MAKE representations of.

Just because you choose not to believe in God does not make you the expert on idols, or on God himself.

Even a scientist will do many many experiments before making an informed decision. How many "experiments" have you done before coming to your "opinion" that those who believe in God are idol worshipers? Really, you haven't based your statement on anything other than your own random thoughts.

I looked and found no god.

"Even a scientist will do many many experiments before making an informed decision. How many "experiments" have you done before coming to your "opinion" that those who believe in God are idol worshipers?"

How many "experiments" have you done before coming to your "opinion" that there is a god?

Regards
DL

 

[judyd1]

Really? This is your "proof"? This is your counter-argument? That basically it comes down to your opinion or someone else's? That is one of the most circular trains of thought I've ever been on.

I don't have to be able to see the wind, or radio waves to believe they exist. I see evidence of it when my hair blows or when I turn the radio on.

Using this line of reasoning, when we see all the colors, or the variety of flowers or flavors of food--we need NONE of those things in order for our lives to continue. If we are here by random chance, why would any of those extrinsic factors exist in nature? They don't help us. They are purely for our enjoyment.

Jehovah God exists. He gave us a variety of everything--foods, flavors, colors, textures, music--because he loves us and wanted us to enjoy living on this earth. Just because you don't believe in him, doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you. He wants you to know him, DL. You don't have to look any further. You found him. Just ask him and he will show himself to you.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Really? This is your "proof"? This is your counter-argument? That basically it comes down to your opinion or someone else's? That is one of the most circular trains of thought I've ever been on.

I don't have to be able to see the wind, or radio waves to believe they exist. I see evidence of it when my hair blows or when I turn the radio on.

Using this line of reasoning, when we see all the colors, or the variety of flowers or flavors of food--we need NONE of those things in order for our lives to continue. If we are here by random chance, why would any of those extrinsic factors exist in nature? They don't help us. They are purely for our enjoyment.

Jehovah God exists. He gave us a variety of everything--foods, flavors, colors, textures, music--because he loves us and wanted us to enjoy living on this earth. Just because you don't believe in him, doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you. He wants you to know him, DL. You don't have to look any further. You found him. Just ask him and he will show himself to you.

So your opinion based on nothing is more powerful than mine based on reality. Ok.

If your immoral genocidal son murdering god would really exist, all moral people would reject him as a worthy god.

Are moral values important to you or would you accept your god regardless of his immorality?

If morals are important, then, since you cannot prove your god exists and I cannot prove he does not, we should be able to discuss the morality he shows in scriptures to determine if your god is moral or not.

Are you game and ready to analyze his morals, as shown in scriptures, to see if your god is worthy?

If so, shall we begin with this?

Regards
DL

 

[judyd1]

"So your opinion based on nothing is more powerful than mine based on reality."

Only if you consider your reality to be the only reality that exists. Einstein would disagree, but that's another conversation. Are you saying that it is only my opinion that wind and radio waves exist? Or that because you can't physically see God with your own eyes, that he does not? That is not a scientific basis on which to base a theory. And I say that because God created the very concept of physics that governs our universe.

"If your immoral genocidal son murdering god would really exist, all moral people would reject him as a worthy god."

You are not the first person to express these ideas about God. Such an idea about the God of the Bible is not new. It was first propounded by Marcion, a semi-Gnostic of the second century C.E. Marcion repudiated the God of the “Old Testament.” He considered that God to be violent and vindictive, a tyrant who offered material rewards to those worshiping him.

The fact that man has morals and feels injustice tells us that God (who created man in his image) has morals. When He gave man free will (the right to decide for themselves), he was not a puppet master--and man was no puppet. Man could choose to do what was wrong--but there are consequences. When you tell your child not to put their hand on the stove, and they choose to do it anyway, there is a consequence. God will not keep you from making your choices, your mistakes. But to protect all those who love what is good and right, He will not forever put up with those who don't act in harmony with beneficial and wholesome morals. He will not forever allow people to keep ruining and polluting the earth and acting in ways that are not moral.

"...all moral people would reject him as a worthy god....." In fact, most people do reject Jehovah as God. But this has nothing to do with morals. If they acknowledged him as God, then they would feel a sense of responsibility to him and might have to listen to him. Most people are more concerned with being independent and not having to answer to anyone or be obedient and become the kind of person God wants as his friend. Abraham was called God's friend. We can become God's friend, too. Jesus, God's son, did not reject his Father. In fact, he said that he completely agreed with God's purpose for mankind. You may be familiar with John 3:16--God loved the world so much that he sent his only begotten son. Or John 10:30--"I and the Father are one..." John 10:38--"The Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father..." Matthew 6:9--"...you must pray this way: our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified..." Psalms 83:18--"That men may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, you alone are the most high over all the earth."

Jehovah is patient even when others do terrible things to insult him. For example, think of what he chose to do about the wickedness before the Flood. Jehovah was “hurt at his heart” because people had filled the earth with sexual immorality and violence, and they wanted to do only what was bad. (Genesis 6: 5,6) Of course, he was not going to allow wickedness to continue forever. He is the Creator with the right to determine what happens to his creations.

For example, you painted a beautiful painting and gave it to a friend. When visiting your friend, you found that he has put the painting in the barn and let the animals walk on it. How would you feel about your friend? If you could retrieve the painting and restore it, would you? Who has the right to your painting when it is not appreciated and taken care of? Do you consider that Jehovah, who has the same feelings He gave us, would not feel the same injustice at the way humans act toward each other and this planet?

 

[Senter]

when we see all the colors, or the variety of flowers or flavors of food--we need NONE of those things in order for our lives to continue. If we are here by random chance, why would any of those extrinsic factors exist in nature? They don't help us. They are purely for our enjoyment.

The perception of colors enables us to distinguish living, healthy, edible plants more readily from unhealthy or dying plants. It helped early man to discern dangerous predators hiding in the brush. Color perception is essential for our survival. It is not about enjoyment.

Jehovah God exists.

If no one had told you that you would be unlikely to hold that opinion as there is no unmistakable evidence that a god exists. There is no proof so you cannot say “Jehovah God exists” if you are to be honest and tell the truth. The best you can do honestly is to say”I believe Jehovah God exists”.

He gave us a variety of everything--foods, flavors, colors, textures, music--because he loves us and wanted us to enjoy living on this earth.

If truthfully and honestly the best you can say is that you believe God exists, then you cannot assert honestly that God in fact gave anything, loves us, or wants anything. The best you can do is to say “I believe....” Otherwise you are being untruthful, which is a sin I believe in your religion. It is at least dishonest and a bit immoral.

Just because you don't believe in him, doesn't mean he doesn't believe in you.

No, it means he doesn’t believe in a god. The rest is your personal beliefs that he (and I) don’t share.

He wants you to know him, DL. You don't have to look any further. You found him. Just ask him and he will show himself to you.

For more than ten years I dilligently, honestly, sincerely tried that and got zero.

Are you saying that it is only my opinion that wind and radio waves exist?

You are confusing things that can be tested extensively with reproducable results with something for which there is no proof, no experimental evidence, and cannot be tested, and is solely a belief held by some.

The fact that man has morals and feels injustice tells us that God (who created man in his image) has morals. When He gave man free will ....

Again, you offer a personal belief which is unsupportable, unfounded in reality, and unprovable as fact. If it were fact you would be able to prove it. If you cannot prove it, it is not fact.

The remainder of your post is a repeating of these errors of trying to pass off opinion and belief as fact. It’s time you and other religionists faced reality and admitted that yours is a belief system and nothing more.

Best wishes.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

"So your opinion based on nothing is more powerful than mine based on reality."
?

I see that you decided to ignore discussing the moral issues shown by your god, --- that could actually lead to an end game for us, --- to instead preach your immoral doctrine.

That tells us all a lot of what your priorities are.

Regards
DL

 

[judyd1]

I understand that you feel you have searched for proof of God and have been disappointed. You're not the first to feel that way, and to feel the need to rationalize your decision to believe that because you can't see him, and that you searched for him but didn't find him, that there is no God. That's your choice. It doesn't mean that therefore the entire universe is now rearranged to fit your new decision. Otherwise, every time you change your mind, the universe rearranges itself again to fit the new paradigm. That could be hard on the rest of us.

Instead, a reasonable person allows for others to believe however they wish, and considers new evidence to determine if/how this new evidence or information fits into the framework of facts already established. I am not entirely convinced that you are interested in learning new evidence or information. It seems as if your sole intent is to discredit any opinion or belief that does not agree or support your own. Please, tell me if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

When Jehovah God created man, he told them to become fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it. His purpose was for the entire earth to become a garden-like paradise, in which perfect humans could enjoy endless life. It was never meant for humans to rule others, to treat them as slaves or to kill each other. When the original pair chose to disobey God, they set in motion all of the miserable human history we have talked about and are still seeing today.

However, if we were to say that Jehovah is not capable of finding a way to complete his purpose for the earth, that would be saying that humans are able to thwart or prevent his purposes from being realized. That is not the case. Immediately after Adam and Eve made their choice, Jehovah set in motion his plan to correct the situation. (Genesis 3:15) He arranged for the Bible to be preserved for thousands of years (in spite of numerous attempts to discredit and destroy it), he planned a government ruled by his Son that would not only make the earth into the paradise he'd originally planned, but that would undo all of the human suffering experienced by people throughout mankind's history.

Would there be those who do not want to be a part of that bright future? Yes.
Would there be those who try to convince others that it is not real? Yes.
Does the Bible explain why we are here, what is our purpose, why we suffer, how God will fix it, and how we can cope with our problems in the meantime? Yes. Yes it does.

For those who are really searching for answers, the Bible does that and more. I invite you to search for those answers at www.jw.org. It is the most translated website in the world, with over 700 languages. Wikipedia doesn't even come close to that number, nor does the U.N. website. But Jehovah God wants people to know about him, and really, wouldn't you expect that if he really were the Creator, he would make sure that people have a way to know about him? Thank you for allowing me to let people know about this, DL. I hope you find what you're really searching for.

 

[Senter]

I see that you decided to ignore discussing the moral issues shown by your god, --- that could actually lead to an end game for us, --- to instead preach your immoral doctrine.

That tells us all a lot of what your priorities are.

Regards
DL

I have seen some good, direct, potentially revealing questions posed for zealots but I've never seen then actually address any of those questions. It's "too dangerous" to their belief, and they would rather live in a fantasy world it seems.

 

[Senter]

I understand that you feel you have searched for proof of God and have been disappointed. You're not the first to feel that way, and to feel the need to rationalize your decision to believe that because you can't see him, and that you searched for him but didn't find him, that there is no God.

But Judy, just yesterday you said “He wants you to know him, DL. You don't have to look any further. You found him. Just ask him and he will show himself to you.”

Instead, a reasonable person allows for others to believe however they wish, and considers new evidence to determine if/how this new evidence or information fits into the framework of facts already established. I am not entirely convinced that you are interested in learning new evidence or information.

And it looks like you have been shown lots of evidence and haven't given most of it due consideration, so what you say here seems to apply to you as well.

It seems as if your sole intent is to discredit any opinion or belief that does not agree or support your own.

Oh please. You have done no differently.

When Jehovah God created man, he told them to become fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it.

There you go again asserting belief to be fact. To phrase that honestly you need to say " The bible says that when Jehovah God created man, he told them to become fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it. "

His purpose was for the entire earth to become a garden-like paradise, in which perfect humans could enjoy endless life.

Two problems with this. First, where in the bible does it say this was his purpose? Or is that your own conclusion? And secondly, if you really believe this are you prepared now to admit that your concept of god is a miserable failure who couldn't bring about what he "wanted" and couldn't see the future to know what he was creating?

I'll bet you will not honestly and directly confront these two questions because they would be devastating to your belief.

However, if we were to say that Jehovah is not capable of finding a way to complete his purpose for the earth, that would be saying that humans are able to thwart or prevent his purposes from being realized. That is not the case.

But in the very last sentence you said that god's purpose was "for the entire earth to become a garden-like paradise, in which perfect humans could enjoy endless life"!!!! And now you suggest that humans are unable to thwart or prevent his purposes!!!!

Your beliefs seem to be rife with contradictions that you refuse to confront in order to preserve your story and belief!! This is why unbelievers do not believe: they confront their contradictions more.

Immediately after Adam and Eve made their choice, Jehovah set in motion his plan to correct the situation.

So again you flip-flop back to the idea that God goofed; he made an error and had to fit it. He couldn't create what he had planned.

I admit these are very tough questions, and you will ignore them therefore.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I understand that you feel you have searched for proof of God and have been disappointed. You're not the first to feel that way, and to feel the need to rationalize your decision to believe that because you can't see him, and that you searched for him but didn't find him, that there is no God. That's your choice. It doesn't mean that therefore the entire universe is now rearranged to fit your new decision. Otherwise, every time you change your mind, the universe rearranges itself again to fit the new paradigm. That could be hard on the rest of us.

Instead, a reasonable person allows for others to believe however they wish, and considers new evidence to determine if/how this new evidence or information fits into the framework of facts already established. I am not entirely convinced that you are interested in learning new evidence or information. It seems as if your sole intent is to discredit any opinion or belief that does not agree or support your own. Please, tell me if I have come to the wrong conclusion.

When Jehovah God created man, he told them to become fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it. His purpose was for the entire earth to become a garden-like paradise, in which perfect humans could enjoy endless life. It was never meant for humans to rule others, to treat them as slaves or to kill each other. When the original pair chose to disobey God, they set in motion all of the miserable human history we have talked about and are still seeing today.

However, if we were to say that Jehovah is not capable of finding a way to complete his purpose for the earth, that would be saying that humans are able to thwart or prevent his purposes from being realized. That is not the case. Immediately after Adam and Eve made their choice, Jehovah set in motion his plan to correct the situation. (Genesis 3:15) He arranged for the Bible to be preserved for thousands of years (in spite of numerous attempts to discredit and destroy it), he planned a government ruled by his Son that would not only make the earth into the paradise he'd originally planned, but that would undo all of the human suffering experienced by people throughout mankind's history.

Would there be those who do not want to be a part of that bright future? Yes.
Would there be those who try to convince others that it is not real? Yes.
Does the Bible explain why we are here, what is our purpose, why we suffer, how God will fix it, and how we can cope with our problems in the meantime? Yes. Yes it does.

For those who are really searching for answers, the Bible does that and more. I invite you to search for those answers at www.jw.org. It is the most translated website in the world, with over 700 languages. Wikipedia doesn't even come close to that number, nor does the U.N. website. But Jehovah God wants people to know about him, and really, wouldn't you expect that if he really were the Creator, he would make sure that people have a way to know about him? Thank you for allowing me to let people know about this, DL. I hope you find what you're really searching for.

Again you preach for your god while ignoring that his morals are crap.

If you want me to like your god then showing how his policies are moral, when I do not see them as moral, is the way to sell me on your god.

The fact that you do not advocate for his polocies shows that you are more interested in a god of power instead of the morality of him.

Follow your satanic god all you want but don't B.S. us about how3 good he is.

Keep your moral blinders on and preach to the immoral. Not to a moral person.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I have seen some good, direct, potentially revealing questions posed for zealots but I've never seen then actually address any of those questions. It's "too dangerous" to their belief, and they would rather live in a fantasy world it seems.

I hear you. The best way to get rid or such immoral preachers is to try to get them to justify the immorality that their gods follow. They know this and that is why they just keep their moral blinders on and run for the hills.

Pathetic really.

Regards
DL

 

[Senter]

See? They never answer the obvious but hard questions. They usually run. The myth is bankrupt and more and more people are catching on.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

See? They never answer the obvious but hard questions. They usually run. The myth is bankrupt and more and more people are catching on.

There are confusing stats out there on whether the numbers of religious are going up or down. Some say that the tipping point to non-belief over belief will be 2050 while other stats show both Christianity and Islam as growing.

Mind you, many claim some religious affiliation but never set foot in a church or mosque. I don't know how we can separate the wheat from the chaff.

The number of churches up for sale has been rising so that may be the best indicator that the need for religions is on the way down. Education will do that and we are producing brighter children who seem to dislike the hate that religions preach for all who are not of their particular brand of fantasy.

Regards
DL

 

[K Schultz]

If your immoral genocidal son murdering god would really exist, all moral people would reject him as a worthy god.

I agree with this statement; if one reads segments of the Bible, there are references to killing people by stoning.
If the Bible is God's word; how can God be a forgiving being? He didn't forgive them did he?
My personal belief is that religions are founded to control the masses by writing rules for man to adhere to. If you are religious, you lose your free will to a certain extent; you are a slave of a being which cannot be proven.