60 glorious years of Chinese Communism

dahermit said:
Like capitalism had a pacifying effect on all the right-wing South American military governments and their death squads? Or, like capitalism had a pacifying effect on our American Indians? No system of government is innocent of murder. To interject that communism has killed more people than capitalism is a pointless and childish version of: "My dad is stronger than your dad."
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Or a recognition that while no gov is perfect some are worse than others.
 
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Stalin said:
What to you mean by Capital ?
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I have no idea what you are trying to say here?:confused:

How much reading by Marx or Milton Friedman have you done ? A whole book ?

Do you think that the USSR and China were able to build dams and factories without financial planning. loans and payments ?

I do not consider an argument base on dialectial materialism a "rave".

I am too old to have been to a "rave" but I hear they are jolly exciting with lots of loud repetitive music that you need love drugs to appreciate.

Sort of like Philip Glass without the talent or subtlety.

Comrade Stalin
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Sure Communist countries have to plan financially for things. They also control exactly how much their workers will be paid. That may get some things done but there's nothing wonderful about it. The problem with Communism is if there is no real incentive to succeed and you just go where you are told and work human beings tend to lose initiative.

And know as dahermit rightly pointed China has become a blend of Communism and Capitalism. And I'll add that Russia isn't even a Communist country anymore.

As far as "raves"... you lost me there too...
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dahermit said:
Yeah, some have more "pacifying effect".
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Yes, in the states we scream and yell in the halls of congress but we don't blow each other up very much. Our system channels our disagreements into heated debate rather than terrorism or persecution.
 
China was never EVER communist, even back in mao's time. I can tell you how all the atrocities commited by leninsts, stalinists, moaists, and other sects can indirectly be traced to france, if someone would ask me.
 
top gun said:
Oh pleeeease...:rolleyes:
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OK. All these "communist" nations stem from lenin's thoughts, who got barely anything [other than the emphasis on the proletariat, and barely that] from Marx. He got most of his ideas from fellow russian revolutionaries, who got thier ideas from the french revolution. Indirectly effected by the euros.
 
Dr.Who said:
Yes, in the states we scream and yell in the halls of congress but we don't blow each other up very much. Our system channels our disagreements into heated debate rather than terrorism or persecution.
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Yeah. If you forget the Civil War, KKK, Railroad, Timber, Coal, Oil robber barons. Indian massacres, the Davidian Compound in Waco, The persecution of Mormons, Slavery, Military Adventurisum, Oklahoma City bombing, thousands of North and South Vietnamese civilians killed, torture of suspects in the Middle East. Yes, our form of Government never results in terrorism or persecution. It is clearly superior to all others. How often is New Zealand, Denmark, Switzerland, or Sweden (socialist countries) been involved in such things?
 
Dante the Marxist said:
China was never EVER communist, even back in mao's time. I can tell you how all the atrocities commited by leninsts, stalinists, moaists, and other sects can indirectly be traced to france, if someone would ask me.
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I would like to ask you to learn how to spell.

Comrade Stalin
 
Dante the Marxist said:
OK. All these "communist" nations stem from lenin's thoughts, who got barely anything [other than the emphasis on the proletariat, and barely that] from Marx. He got most of his ideas from fellow russian revolutionaries, who got thier ideas from the french revolution. Indirectly effected by the euros.
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...there are elements of truth in what you say, comrade, but I am mildly shocked by your claims of being marxist while displaying a cavalier approach to scholarship and inaccuracy including bad spelling and grammar.

" The Russian revolutionary tradition dates back at least as far as the 1820s, when army officers who had seen Western Europe during the Napoleonic wars plotted against the newly installed regime of Nicholas I. Later in the century some of the sons and daughters of the privileged classes joined revolutionary movements dedicated to the overthrow of the monarchy and a radical renovation of their backward, autocratic society. Western European socialist ideas, imported into the Russian environment, often assumed a more radical flavor, or underwent cross-fertilization with a native strain of populism.

The first volume of Marx's Capital, published in Russia in 1872, outsold the German edition. "We seized on Marxism," one of the revolutionaries recalled, "because we were attracted by its sociological and economic optimism, its strong belief, buttressed by facts and figures, that the development of the economy, the development of capitalism, by eroding the foundations of the old society, was creating new social forces (including us) which would certainly sweep away the autocratic regime together with its abominations. With the optimism of youth we had been searching for a formula that offered hope, and we found it in Marxism. We were also attracted by its European nature. Marxism came from Europe. It did not smell and taste of homegrown mould and provincialism, but was new, fresh, and exciting. Marxism held out a promise that we would become part of the West with its culture, institutions and attributes of a free political system" (Nikolai Valentinov, who lived with Lenin in Geneva in 1904).).

Russian revolutionary movements tended to have two sides. On the one hand, their adherents exhibited extraordinary courage, generosity, and idealism. On the other hand, police repression drove these movements underground, where they developed conspiratorial tendencies and a certain kind of ruthlessness, a streak of moral indifference in the service of the cause. By the late 1870s, there was a terrorist movement in Russia, and its members succeeded in assassinating Tsar Alexander II in 1880. Lenin's older brother Alexander Ul'ianov was executed for his part in an abortive plot to kill Alexander III in 1887.


..In 1887 Lenin enrolled as a law student at Kazan University, and, as the brother of a revolutionary martyr, was drawn into a clandestine group. Arrested and expelled, he lived idly for a time on his mother's estate and immersed himself in radical books. Even before he had read much of Marx, the Russian revolutionary tradition itself provided him with the main components of his doctrine: the stress on a disciplined revolutionary vanguard; the belief that seizure of the apparatus of the state could bring about a social revolution; a defense of ruthless (Jacobin) methods of dictatorship; and a contempt for compromise with liberals and democrats.

As Orlando Figes suggests in the best recent book on the Russian revolution, "Lenin used the ideas of Chernyshevsky, Nechaev, Tkachev, and the People's Will [the populist/terrorist sect that had assassinated the Tsar] to inject a distinctly Russian dose of conspiratorial politics into a Marxist dialectic that would otherwise have remained passiveÜcontent to wait for the revolution to mature through the development of objective conditions rather than eager to bring it about through political action. It was not Marxism that made Lenin a revolutionary but Lenin who made Marxism revolutionary."


http://media.ucsc.edu/classes/thompson/history30c/07_lenin.html

Comrade Stalin
 
pocketfullofshells said:
no , I have known Stalin for years at other forums...he realy belives this stuff.

I know you would picture him with a free Tibet shirt, but he would not care if China killed all the monks in Tibet.
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Strawman argument.

Shame on you !

Have you learn nothing in the last 3 forums ?

Comrade Stalin
 
Dante the Marxist said:
China was never EVER communist, even back in mao's time. I can tell you how all the atrocities commited by leninsts, stalinists, moaists, and other sects can indirectly be traced to france, if someone would ask me.
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Sorry but the world wide concensus is that China is a communist country.
 
dahermit said:
Yeah. If you forget the Civil War, KKK, Railroad, Timber, Coal, Oil robber barons. Indian massacres, the Davidian Compound in Waco, The persecution of Mormons, Slavery, Military Adventurisum, Oklahoma City bombing, thousands of North and South Vietnamese civilians killed, torture of suspects in the Middle East. Yes, our form of Government never results in terrorism or persecution. It is clearly superior to all others. How often is New Zealand, Denmark, Switzerland, or Sweden (socialist countries) been involved in such things?
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I stand corrected. We GENERALLY channel our disagreements.
 
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Stalin said:
...there are elements of truth in what you say, comrade, but I am mildly shocked by your claims of being marxist while displaying a cavalier approach to scholarship and inaccuracy including bad spelling and grammar.

" The Russian revolutionary tradition dates back at least as far as the 1820s, when army officers who had seen Western Europe during the Napoleonic wars plotted against the newly installed regime of Nicholas I. Later in the century some of the sons and daughters of the privileged classes joined revolutionary movements dedicated to the overthrow of the monarchy and a radical renovation of their backward, autocratic society. Western European socialist ideas, imported into the Russian environment, often assumed a more radical flavor, or underwent cross-fertilization with a native strain of populism.

The first volume of Marx's Capital, published in Russia in 1872, outsold the German edition. "We seized on Marxism," one of the revolutionaries recalled, "because we were attracted by its sociological and economic optimism, its strong belief, buttressed by facts and figures, that the development of the economy, the development of capitalism, by eroding the foundations of the old society, was creating new social forces (including us) which would certainly sweep away the autocratic regime together with its abominations. With the optimism of youth we had been searching for a formula that offered hope, and we found it in Marxism. We were also attracted by its European nature. Marxism came from Europe. It did not smell and taste of homegrown mould and provincialism, but was new, fresh, and exciting. Marxism held out a promise that we would become part of the West with its culture, institutions and attributes of a free political system" (Nikolai Valentinov, who lived with Lenin in Geneva in 1904).).

Russian revolutionary movements tended to have two sides. On the one hand, their adherents exhibited extraordinary courage, generosity, and idealism. On the other hand, police repression drove these movements underground, where they developed conspiratorial tendencies and a certain kind of ruthlessness, a streak of moral indifference in the service of the cause. By the late 1870s, there was a terrorist movement in Russia, and its members succeeded in assassinating Tsar Alexander II in 1880. Lenin's older brother Alexander Ul'ianov was executed for his part in an abortive plot to kill Alexander III in 1887.


..In 1887 Lenin enrolled as a law student at Kazan University, and, as the brother of a revolutionary martyr, was drawn into a clandestine group. Arrested and expelled, he lived idly for a time on his mother's estate and immersed himself in radical books. Even before he had read much of Marx, the Russian revolutionary tradition itself provided him with the main components of his doctrine: the stress on a disciplined revolutionary vanguard; the belief that seizure of the apparatus of the state could bring about a social revolution; a defense of ruthless (Jacobin) methods of dictatorship; and a contempt for compromise with liberals and democrats.

As Orlando Figes suggests in the best recent book on the Russian revolution, "Lenin used the ideas of Chernyshevsky, Nechaev, Tkachev, and the People's Will [the populist/terrorist sect that had assassinated the Tsar] to inject a distinctly Russian dose of conspiratorial politics into a Marxist dialectic that would otherwise have remained passiveÜcontent to wait for the revolution to mature through the development of objective conditions rather than eager to bring it about through political action. It was not Marxism that made Lenin a revolutionary but Lenin who made Marxism revolutionary."


http://media.ucsc.edu/classes/thompson/history30c/07_lenin.html

Comrade Stalin
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There lies the problem. VANGUARD. It was meant to be the people's revolution, but was led by a elitist vanguard.

P.S.
You have heard of the Paris Commune, right? Lenin, making marxism revolutionary! HA!
 
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