10 Reasons Gay Marriage is Unamerican and Wrong

Presumably that purpose is to bear and raise children?

...according to the rights of the child. Correct.

If so, then that would limit who would eligable for those priviledges such as elderly or barren couples

Why do you keep repeating this? Is it difficult to extrapolate the purpose of the marital institution seeing that infertility is a ground for its dissolution?

And do you really need to invade the privacy of individuals (as to their reproductive conditions) just to prove your point?

or couples who have no plan to have children.

When a man and a woman is in a conjugal union, the possibility of children is always there, whatever their plans at any particular time within the marriage.
 
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...according to the rights of the child. Correct.

But if they don't have a child, then it doesn't matter does it?

Maybe in a time gone by someone made a rule that procreating was a necessity of marriage, but it doesn't mean its right. Maybe its time to change it - time to be more accepting and realise that marriage isn't all about popping out kids left, right and centre.
 
But if they don't have a child, then it doesn't matter does it?

Maybe in a time gone by someone made a rule that procreating was a necessity of marriage, but it doesn't mean its right. Maybe its time to change it - time to be more accepting and realise that marriage isn't all about popping out kids left, right and centre.

Soooo if its not about procreation, whats the point of government licensing and regulation? What possible purpose is served by government licensing and regulating a sexual relationship?
And has ANYBODY argued that "procreating was a necessity of marriage"? Another straw man?
 
Soooo if its not about procreation, whats the point of government licensing and regulation? What possible purpose is served by government licensing and regulating a sexual relationship?
And has ANYBODY argued that "procreating was a necessity of marriage"? Another straw man?

Wha is the point of getting married even if procreation is the aim???

Numinus certainly has argued that procreation is a necessity of marriage. Maybe you should read the debate before you start accusing me of strawman tactics?
 
But if they don't have a child, then it doesn't matter does it?

Correct. And the only time they ABSOLUTELY don't have a child within the union is if one of the spouses dies - which dissolves the marriage.

Maybe in a time gone by someone made a rule that procreating was a necessity of marriage, but it doesn't mean its right. Maybe its time to change it - time to be more accepting and realise that marriage isn't all about popping out kids left, right and centre.

It can never change. The rights of the child is intimately joined with pro-creation.
 
Wha is the point of getting married even if procreation is the aim???

Legal or ethical?

From an ethical perspective, conjugal love is BOTH UNITIVE AND PROCREATIVE.

Numinus certainly has argued that procreation is a necessity of marriage. Maybe you should read the debate before you start accusing me of strawman tactics?

Glad to see you up and about staying on top of the debate.
 
...according to the rights of the child. Correct.

Procreation is only one aspect of marriage. The aspect of marriage that involves the state however is property.

Why do you keep repeating this? Is it difficult to extrapolate the purpose of the marital institution seeing that infertility is a ground for its dissolution?

I repeat it because infertility is only one of many grounds for dissolution. Historically - state recognized marriage was in western society was limited to upper classes where property and titles were a concern. Common law marriage was for the rest.

And do you really need to invade the privacy of individuals (as to their reproductive conditions) just to prove your point?

I'm not sure what your point is. If procreation should be the only or major concern for conferring special rights on a couple then yes because it is the only thing which seperates a homosexual couple from a heterosexual couple unless they already have children.

When a man and a woman is in a conjugal union, the possibility of children is always there, whatever their plans at any particular time within the marriage.

Maybe. Maybe not if they opted for surgical infertility.
 
What is the point of marriage at all? Why does the government regulate it at all? If you argue that gay marriage is OK but the government is under no obligation to leglislate it, the logic behind that argument usually can work for normal marriage too.
 
Wha is the point of getting married even if procreation is the aim???

Numinus certainly has argued that procreation is a necessity of marriage. Maybe you should read the debate before you start accusing me of strawman tactics?

Nope. Just your strawman used to avoid the issue. Just as your question is asked, to avoid answering the question you felt the need to respond to. At least your consistant.
 
I'm against gay marriage, but I agree that it's a state's rights issue, not something for the feds to decide. See the 10th amendment for more details...

I'll bite on some of these, though, for the sake of discussion:

1. Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning. Last time I checked eyeglasses, polyester and air conditioning improved people's quality of life. Being gay doesn't help me see better, make me look good, or cool me down in the summer.


2. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall. Being tall is not a behavior that can be changed. Being gay is a behavior that can be changed. I know two people (one good friend and an aquaintence) who have gone from straight to gay just because it's easier to get sex. And they didn't get taller...


3. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract. A dog, perhaps not. But why not polygamy? Why are they less important than gays? And why not let someone marry themself? They might love themself so much, and they shouldn't be denied the all the rights of married people. That would be discrimination...shame shame.

4. Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal. All of those things were changed by society. If society wants to make gay marriage legal, so be it. But last I checked 13 states have banned it. So good luck...

5. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed. Doesn't make straight marriage any less meaningful. Just makes gay marriage a sham.

6. Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children. Irrelevant. You don't get married for the sole purpose of making children.

7. Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children. But those children would be more susceptable to being gay being that they're exposed to that BEHAVIOR all day long.

8. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America. That's right - most religions are against it. And while we don't live in a theocracy, many of our laws are based on the Judeo-Christian principles of the Bible. Sorry.


9. Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children. Children CAN succeed in a single family home, but studies show that having a male AND female role model at home significantly improves a child's chances of success in life.


10. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans. Again, you're comparing non-behaviors to a behavior. Doesn't work.


Boobs 1. but you know watching to hot chicks go at it, makes your day a bit better...you know it.
2.I would love more sex, but that does not mean I will go sex a guy....you know why? I'm not gay ....You know why your 2 friends could do that? they where always gay...If it was about more sex, they would all be BI....
3. what do you care? if some guy marries 2 chicks? does it mean you have to? ( shudders at thought of 2 wives...) I think marring one is wrong and not natural as well...but you still go of and do it...
4.13 states are dumb . many states also had slavery as ok...( I bet a lot of overlap on that...but I cant say for sure) Society is full of people who think that its somehow your business who and how you screw....Boobs you know in MN it was against the law for you get a BJ from your woman? or to go down on her? "Society said that as well"
5. how does anyone else's marriage effect what yours means? How does ladies getting married for life...have more effect then Spears getting married for a 2 days? or Rush getting married like 7 times? ( I don't know how many times really)
6.I don't like kids....I want them banned from strait parents.
7. IS that how dick Cheney's kid ended up gay? all that gay sex between Dick and Bush?
8. SO the Rights of Americans should fall 2nd to what ever bible thumpers want ? There is a reason I left teh Republican party....because I valued Rights, they valued the bible over the Bill of Rights and Constitution.
9. So then why don't we force it on them? Force parents to stay together....Forced marriage if you know someone else....and it you commit adultery and knock someone up on the side, forced Polygamy
10.You want me, you know it.
 
Procreation is only one aspect of marriage. The aspect of marriage that involves the state however is property.

Anthrolologically speaking, that isn't why marriage became an institution supported by the state. We have covered this as well. Since it takes so long for our young to reach a state of maturity in which they don't need parents to take care of them, it was to the benefit of the state to find a way to support a relationship between a man and a woman so that it could reasonably be expected to last long enough to see to the rearing of children. If our children matured to the point that they could leave their parents in a half a year or a year, then the insitution of marriage would probably never have come about.

And in regard to your suggestion that other cultures supported homosexual "marriage", I would challenge you to bring forward evidence of such support, and what they called the relationship in their language and prove that what they called it was also the word, in their language, for marriage. I believe that you will find it quite impossible to meet the challenge because no culture has ever supported homosexual marriage.
 
Anthrolologically speaking, that isn't why marriage became an institution supported by the state. We have covered this as well. Since it takes so long for our young to reach a state of maturity in which they don't need parents to take care of them, it was to the benefit of the state to find a way to support a relationship between a man and a woman so that it could reasonably be expected to last long enough to see to the rearing of children. If our children matured to the point that they could leave their parents in a half a year or a year, then the insitution of marriage would probably never have come about.

Yes, and Coca-Cola was invented to clean rust off Jeeps. The point isn't so much where it came from as where it is today.
 
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I simply do not give opinions with no factual nor logical basis.



If marriage is what the intending spouses deem it is, then there is no reason for the state to legalize it. It is enough that the state respect their privacy and the pursuit of their happiness - however bizarre that may be.

That is plain propositional logic for you.

The fact that marriage is governed by laws only means that some aspects of the marital institution exceed the bounds of privacy and pursuit of happiness - namely the right to motherhood, the rights of children and family relations.

You have not mentioned the marital institution as it pertains to the purpose of the state.

Refute, indeed!



Tell me - does the state really give a rat's ass how you perform your marital obligations to your spouse?

The only reasons the state is compelled to regulate marriage are those that result from the above-mentioned marital dimension.

So, keep your reasons to yourself.



That doesn't change the RIGHTS OF CHILDREN.

One can make the argument that one is a better mother or father than another and STILL, ALL children have the right to grow up with his natural family.



Perhaps you wouldn't feel so insulted if you have presented a rational argument to begin with.



And yet, you are willing to overlook this important fact. Just so that gays get society to kiss their collective behinds, eh?



With what? What legal precedent or logical principle have you stated to support your bone-head opinion, eh?



Yes I have. You have said NOTHING against the right to motherhood except to claim that women in their 60s cannot bear children.

You have said NOTHING against the rights of children except to claim that a homosexual couple is better than a single parent, or no parent for that matter.

You have said NOTHING against family relations except to claim that gays have families too.

So, what exactly have you refuted, hmmm?



That is the ONLY definition. So, having been thoroughly educated with the meaning of the word, would you mind pointing to a circular argument that I made, hmmm?



Its simple set operation and membership, even grade schoolers are capable of it. Sexual assault and homosexuality belong to the set of sexual acts that are not pro-creative in nature - hence cannot be made the basis of marriage.

Flawless logic.

.

No amount of disagreement can change the fact that sex is merely a part of the entire process of procreation.

Your statement is symptomatic of a fundamentally faulty logic. The state does not deem your personal pleasure as the purpose of the marital institution, nor any law for that matter. Ethics does not dictate that you act according to a calculation of pleasure, alone.

While sex may indeed be pleasurable and that people do indulge in sex for the pleasure that it brings, such standards of human action has nothing to do with the law nor ethics.



LMAO. You were assuming a dictionary definition when my replies clearly allude to something transcendental? No wonder you are lost.

Pro-creation is the way rational beings share in the PROCESS OF CREATION initiated by the creator. From this, it becomes obvious that any action, to be deemed pro-creative, must conform to a rational conception of HUMAN POTENTIAL.



Yes, insofar as it does not conform to a rational nor ethical good.



Evil is an absence of good, hence has NO independent and objective existence. You do not need the devil to commit an evil act - only the willful choice to act in a manner CONTRARY to an objective good.

Your statement is entirely bereft of propositional logic.



It reduces the UNITIVE AND PRO-CREATIVE PURPOSE of human sexuality to a mere act of personal pleasure.



No you cannot.

To establish a valid correlation between homosexuality and a physical or genetic factor, one must demonstrate that the occurrence of one and the other follow a normal statistical distribution.

To wit, if a normally distributed population of people produces x percent of homosexuals, then x percent of homosexuals must occur everywhere. In fact, this applies to almost all normally distributed statistical fields such that the confidence levels associated with standard deviations are more or less uniform.

Now, if your alleged evidence does not conform to this standard of mathematical rigor, then you might as well keep it to yourself.



It is obvious that you cannot continue your argument within the bounds of the LAW. And if you think you can improve your chances in ethics, you are sadly mistaken.

There is a difference between sterility and impotence. In the latter case, artificial insemination of a married woman with the seeds of her husband is merely an aid to an otherwise natural process. In the former, the medical procedure undermines the whole point of marriage, not to mention the fundamental rights of the child.

From an ethical point of view, conjugal love has BOTH unitive and pro-creative aspects – aspects that are inseparable from one another. A conjugal love lacking one or both of these aspects is inherently DEFECTIVE.



No. My reply was a criticism of the medical procedure of artificial insemination, especially regarding ethics.



You are not even aware of the rights of a child and here you are expounding adoption as if it were a puppy being contemplated here. The cultural background of the prospective parents play a major factor in the determination of adoption.



What about adoption for the purpose of child exploitation, eh? Is this not economically rewarding?

The point in all this is that in determining adoption, the state necessarily applies DUE DILIGENCE AND DISCRIMINATION to protect the rights and interests of the child. It has nothing to do with prejudice against a particular sexual preference.



Are you in the habit of equating legality with ethics? Everything is ok as long as it can be proven permissible legally, eh?

I'm gone a few days, and come back to find you're still arguing the same old flawed points. Not only that, but now, I'm reading things like this:

You have not mentioned the marital institution as it pertains to the purpose of the state.

Reminding me of Winston and his would be lover, fulfilling their obligation to the state. That is an interesting perspective indeed.

and this little gem:

No. My reply was a criticism of the medical procedure of artificial insemination, especially regarding ethics.

Now, you're going to argue that artificial insemination is unethical, unless the sperm of the husband is used. What if the husband has no sperm? I guess the woman has to dump him or give up her rights to motherhood.

And then this one raises some questions:

Its [sic} simple set operation and membership, even grade schoolers are capable of it. Sexual assault and homosexuality belong to the set of sexual acts that are not pro-creative in nature - hence cannot be made the basis of marriage.

This, and other things you have posted, lead us to believe you think of procreation as the raising of children, not just the conception of them. If that is so, then homosexual couples most certainly can take part in procreation.


But where you got this idea is a real mystery:

To wit, if a normally distributed population of people produces x percent of homosexuals, then x percent of homosexuals must occur everywhere. In fact, this applies to almost all normally distributed statistical fields such that the confidence levels associated with standard deviations are more or less uniform.

That sounds kind of scientific and based on statistics, but it is really just hokum. Otherwise, by extension, if straight, black hair is genetic, then x percent of the population must have it, and that percent would have to occur everywhere. Since there is a far greater percentage of people in China with straight, black hair than there are in most of the rest of the world, then it must not be a genetic trait.

Sorry, but your logic doesn't work. Anyway, you haven't proven that it doesn't occur uniformly.

There are experiments, however, that suggest that homosexuality is genetic.

Here is another one.
 
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