Pravda: American Decent Into Marxism

........capitalism is a mass of interconnecting strands of economics, industrialisation, philosophy, sociology etc etc., so to propose that capitalism is or is not working is a to miss a slightly wider point that certain elements of it are or are not functioning within the overall. The mess as you say was created because certain elements misunderstood "risk" within a free market framework.

Pravda's article is quite amusing but perhaps should not be taken to literally.

Not exactly. Under a free market framework, there never would have been a sub-prime bubble. You can see this is true by the fact that prior to the late 90s, the sub-prime market was a small remote fraction of the market. No one wanted sub-prime loans because they were too risky.

It wasn't until the Government in a push to allow more minorities to get loan, pushed the sub-prime market into the mainstream. Even then, most resisted sub-prime loans because they were again... too risky.

But then the government did something the free-market would have never done prior... It securitized sub-prime loans, giving them an implied AAA rating because the government was guaranteeing them. Suddenly the idea of making a sub-prime loan, and having the government cover it, made it very profitable. Then the rest of the market followed suit.

As more and more sub-prime loans hit the market, the demand for housing went up. Suddenly, the home a mortgage was on, was more valuable, and even if the borrower defaulted, the lender could still make a profit on a house worth more than the original loan.

The rest of course is history. But the point to be made here is this. Without government regulations pushing sub-prime borrowing... none of this would have happened.
 
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Not exactly. Under a free market framework, there never would have been a sub-prime bubble. You can see this is true by the fact that prior to the late 90s, the sub-prime market was a small remote fraction of the market. No one wanted sub-prime loans because they were too risky.

Absolutely right and that was true throughout, at its peak mortgage based securitization accounted for less than 20% of the market? By far the majority was corporate debt and credit cards which had nothing to do with Government.

Interesting that you think Government was involved to such an extent. I was of the oppinion that no one in government would have been able to come up with the vehicles that were traded in the markets as the complexity of the vehicles were beyond even most bankers understanding! Even the credit rating agencies did not understand them which led to them mis-pricing risk. Governments real problem was that they allowed trading and innovation because they could not understand the transactions and allowed the bankers to self-regulate.
 
Reputable news source would never have stories about UFO's or Sea Monsters... like MSNBC.

Dozens in Texas town report seeing UFO

Deep-sea monster caught on tape

Well thank you so much for discrediting this source. I was worried that we were going the way of the soviet union but now that you have discredited the source of the accusation, I can rest assured that all is well with America!

Rejoice people! For we are not in massive debt, we are not running massive deficits, we are not greatly expanding the welfare state, we are not nationalizing private business and industry, we are not losing more of our freedoms on a daily basis, we are not simply printing money with which to buy our own bonds because other nations don't want them... Those were all things that Russia did prior to their collapse and thanks to PLC discrediting Pravda for posts about sea monsters and UFO's, we can ignore their silly claim that America is following the same path that collapsed Russia.

Please PLC, I beg of you... Discredit all the news media outlets who are falsely claiming we are racking up massive debt, running massive deficits, expanding the welfare state, nationalizing private trusts, usurping the rights of the people and the ever insidious claim that we are monetizing our debt.

Actually, as you know, we are, in fact expanding the welfare state, running massive deficits, and printing money. We are expanding the role of government, and have been for many years now. We have now amassed a debt we'll never be able to pay.

However, we aren't adopting Communism or following in the footsteps of the failed Soviet Union.

What is happening is bad enough, but we're a long way from Marxism.

The credibility of the source is important, and a source that rants about sea monsters and space aliens is about as credible as the supermarket tabloids.

And no, MSNBC is not necessarily a credible source, either.

Would you have accepted an article from Pravda as credible before the fall of the Soviet Union?
 
Absolutely right and that was true throughout, at its peak mortgage based securitization accounted for less than 20% of the market? By far the majority was corporate debt and credit cards which had nothing to do with Government.

Interesting that you think Government was involved to such an extent. I was of the oppinion that no one in government would have been able to come up with the vehicles that were traded in the markets as the complexity of the vehicles were beyond even most bankers understanding! Even the credit rating agencies did not understand them which led to them mis-pricing risk. Governments real problem was that they allowed trading and innovation because they could not understand the transactions and allowed the bankers to self-regulate.

First, credit card debt, and other forms of debt, are irrelevant since they were not part of the problem.

Other than news reporters and commentators, as well as government know nothings... I have yet to find a banker or someone in the banking industry that didn't know how it worked.

Moreover, it was government regulation that pushed for sub-prime loans. People in the mortgage industry overwhelmingly say there is tons of regulations. Not only in reports, but also first hand accounts of people in my community today that are in the mortgage business, say there is tons of legal paper work that must be done.

No, the answer is really simple. Through Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the government securitized sub-prime loans. What better way to make money, than to sell sub-prime loans, and when they default, let a government sponsored company take the hit.

If you look at sub-prime originations, the market really takes off in the late 90s. Before that, you don't see the sub-prime market being anything other than a fraction of the market. Yet, here for you to read is the actual press release from one of the first adopters of the sub-prime market specifically to meet minority lending requirements under the CRA. Please read.

This is from October 1997.

1. Notice, they focused on CRA loans, targeted to low and moderate income borrowers and neighborhoods. These are sub-prime loans, or there would be no need to do it because the CRA says to.

2. Notice also, they are guaranteed by Freddie Mac. Of course the point here is, the bank would not make the loans otherwise, because Sub-prime loans are horribly risky.

3. Notice finely, they have an "implied" AAA rating. The only reason they must have an implied AAA rating, is because they were not AAA loans. It was implied because Freddie Mac, the government sponsored company, was securitizing them. The biggest holder of mis-rated risky mortgages is Fannie Mae.

How did Fannie Mae get mis-rated risky mortgages? Easy. In 2001 or 2002, Fannie Mae, under the direction of the HUD department, allowed mortgage companies to package sub-prime loans in with regular loans. As a result, say you sell 100 loans, and have 15 sub-primes. You package them all together, and are allowed to sell them all to Fannie Mae with an "implied" AAA rating, just like Freddie Mac did. Surprise! Mis-priced risk.

Again, what better way to make money than to make risky loans, keep the profit, and let the government through Freddie Mac take the risk. This is specifically where the mis-pricing risk came from.

One problem...
Freddie Mac went bankrupt, along with Fannie Mae. What happened to First Union Corporation? They merged with Wachovia, which went bankrupt after sucking down billions in tax money. The other key player in this deal, was also the very first bank to fail. Namely Bear Stearns.

So the two original banks that engaged in securitizing sub-prime loans with the blessing of the government through Freddie Mac, were also the first couple of banks to fail. Shocking eh? Not really.

Private Mortgage Lenders
Now, you would be correct in pointing out that the rest of the industry also engaged in sub-prime loans. Yes, you are right. But again, the sub-prime originations only happened AFTER the government legitimized the market. Before the late 90s, originations were very small, and fringe market.

But suddenly, after the government showed the way by securitizing sub-prime loans, the rest of the industry said "we want in on that party!" and followed suit. Again, why wouldn't you want in on this? Put yourself in that market. You can loan me $1,000, and charge me whatever interest floats your boat (because my credit rating sucks), and at the same time have the federal government through Fannie or Freddie, securitize it.

So if I pay up the loan, you get your money back with an amazing interest rate. If I default, Fannie or Freddie pays off my debt, and you get to pocket whatever payments I made up to that point. In either case, you break even or make a profit. And you are surprised the private market followed suit? This is obvious.

Private Securitization
But you say... Fannie and Freddie were not in on every single loan. That's true. They didn't securitize every loan. But consider, let's say your a private insurance company, that deals in securitizing financial securities. You look over at Fannie and Freddie, and see they are securitizing millions of sub-prime loans through package securities.

Well hey, if the two biggest mortgage brokers in the entire nation are doing it, and making money... why can't we? So suddenly AIG is securitizing mortgage backed securities too. Of course, Fannie and Freddie go bust, and AIG goes bust too.

Who Started It
No matter how you cut it... you have to go back to who got the ball rolling. Who started the land slide. Because sub-prime mortgages existed for 80 years. Why all of a sudden, in the late 90s did it take off? Perhaps you might try and blame credit default swaps that you eluded too. Sorry but CDSs didn't exist until 1999-2000. The spike in sub-prime loans began before that. 1997 to be exact.

Moreover, if CDSs where the cause, then why have they not caused any problems in any of the other markets? Why only the sub-prime mortgage market has CDSs reeked havoc, and not in any other? Answer: They had nothing to do with it.

It was government regulation that got us into this mess.
 
However, we aren't adopting Communism or following in the footsteps of the failed Soviet Union.
I never said we were adopting Communism... just that we were making the same mistakes that lead to the collapse of Communism in Russia. After reading your list of what you admit we ARE doing, I don't see how you can say Russia didn't have those same disasterous policies...

Simply on the monetizing of the debt... Every country, in the history of the world, who has done this has collapsed; the Wiemar Republic of German and the current government of Zimbabwe are the two best examples.

What is happening is bad enough, but we're a long way from Marxism.
At least your sterile, text book definition of Marxism/Socialism/Fascism... In real life, they have all manifested themselves in different ways in different countries. At the turn of the century, Fascism was all the rage. We didn't call it fascism here... We called it Progressivism. Same with Socialism. Programs and policies we will admit to being socialist in Europe, we call "Progressive" here.The Progressives gave us the "Progressive" income tax, the Federal Reserve, Prohibition, the Square Deal, the New Deal and all the other programs and policies that you, yourself, have admitted are "Socialist" in nature. And the "Progressives" are still at it...

If you have the time, I invite you to watch the following movie on my Blog:

Gabriel Over the Whitehouse
Posted 06-10-2009 at 11:37 PM by GenSeneca

Gabriel over the Whitehouse is a classic movie made in 1933 that glamorizes the possibility of an American President using the power of the executive branch to govern as dictator, without the checks and balances offered by the other two branches.
 
Who Started It
No matter how you cut it... you have to go back to who got the ball rolling. Who started the land slide. Because sub-prime mortgages existed for 80 years. Why all of a sudden, in the late 90s did it take off? Perhaps you might try and blame credit default swaps that you eluded too. Sorry but CDSs didn't exist until 1999-2000. The spike in sub-prime loans began before that. 1997 to be exact.

Moreover, if CDSs where the cause, then why have they not caused any problems in any of the other markets? Why only the sub-prime mortgage market has CDSs reeked havoc, and not in any other? Answer: They had nothing to do with it.

It was government regulation that got us into this mess.

If the problem was the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, why the spike in sub prime mortgages twenty years later?

Yes, it does appear that government regulation, or more precisely deregulation, helped to bring on the recession. You make a good point that the federal government helped get us into the mess we're in.

Which president should we blame? Carter was pres in '77, followed by Reagan in '80, then Bush I in '88, then Clinton in '92, Bush II in ''00 and Obama in '08. While the White House changed residents periodically, so did the Congress.

Further, is it your opinion that the sub prime mortgage fiasco is the sole cause of the world wide recession, or simply one factor?
 
I never said we were adopting Communism... just that we were making the same mistakes that lead to the collapse of Communism in Russia. After reading your list of what you admit we ARE doing, I don't see how you can say Russia didn't have those same disasterous policies...

Simply on the monetizing of the debt... Every country, in the history of the world, who has done this has collapsed; the Wiemar Republic of German and the current government of Zimbabwe are the two best examples.


At least your sterile, text book definition of Marxism/Socialism/Fascism... In real life, they have all manifested themselves in different ways in different countries. At the turn of the century, Fascism was all the rage. We didn't call it fascism here... We called it Progressivism. Same with Socialism. Programs and policies we will admit to being socialist in Europe, we call "Progressive" here.The Progressives gave us the "Progressive" income tax, the Federal Reserve, Prohibition, the Square Deal, the New Deal and all the other programs and policies that you, yourself, have admitted are "Socialist" in nature. And the "Progressives" are still at it...

If you have the time, I invite you to watch the following movie on my Blog:

If you broaden the definition of Marxism, socialism, fascism, progressivism, and a few other -isms enough, then your supermarket tabloid newspaper does have a point.

But, to conclude that the US is following the same path that led to the end of the Soviets is much like blaming the problems of the Soviets on the US, which is something else your tabloid author has done.
 
If the problem was the Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, why the spike in sub prime mortgages twenty years later?

Changes in the CRA adopted in 1995, made a direct goal of increasing minority home ownership. Prior to 1995, it was more of a general policy that large mortgage lenders have a good record or... they might be prevented from conducting a merger. Nothing else was done.

The 1995 changes were the basis from which the HUD department directed Fannie and Freddie to increase purchases of sub-prime loans.

Yes, it does appear that government regulation, or more precisely deregulation, helped to bring on the recession. You make a good point that the federal government helped get us into the mess we're in.

There is no evidence that deregulation had anything to do with it.

Which president should we blame? Carter was pres in '77, followed by Reagan in '80, then Bush I in '88, then Clinton in '92, Bush II in ''00 and Obama in '08. While the White House changed residents periodically, so did the Congress.

I don't subscribe to a "blame the president" mentality. Congress pushed for regulation, and deregulation, and everything in between. Clinton was the one to sign this specific change. Bush promoted that change. Only Reagan was actually against federal intervention at all. Carter was horrible, and it doesn't surprise me we are still paying for his legacy.

Further, is it your opinion that the sub prime mortgage fiasco is the sole cause of the world wide recession, or simply one factor?

I would be hard pressed to claim that the entire world is in a recession. China, India, South Korea, and many former soviet bloc states, are not in recession. Yes their growth is not as large, but they are still growing at a very fast rate.

My wager is that most of the downturn might have been triggered by our downturn, but still largely of their own making. If you look at the countries with the least downward effects, they are mostly economies that have recently adopted very free-capitalistic policies. Again, such as China, India, South Korea, and former soviet bloc states. The ones hardest hit, are countries adopting socialist style policies.
 
If you broaden the definition of Marxism, socialism, fascism, progressivism, and a few other -isms enough, then your supermarket tabloid newspaper does have a point.

But, to conclude that the US is following the same path that led to the end of the Soviets is much like blaming the problems of the Soviets on the US, which is something else your tabloid author has done.

Um... Define socialism? To a conservative, government ownership or control, is socialism. That's what socialism is defined as. It's the belief that government control is the ultimate good. Socially, it's the idea that government should control what religion people practice, or how many babies they can have, and similar issues. Economically, it's the idea that government knows best what products should be produced, or how they should be produced, or how much they cost, or how much workers should be paid to make them.

All regulation to those ends, is a socialist regulation. We're not talking about food that shouldn't kill those who eat it. That's a matter of law. Murder, or accidental homicide if of course wrong. But when it's about government not liking people being able to buy the car of their choice, for example, that's socialism.

Further, Soviet economists have been saying we are following their bad examples for a lot longer than that article has existed. For example, the regulation of energy industry leading to shortages, is something the Soviets have done for years. Their deregulation of the energy industry is exactly why their energy prices are dropping, while ours are rising.
 
There is no evidence that deregulation had anything to do with it.

That's probably a fair comment!

I think the issue was not deregulation or regulation it was the fact that the markets were left in a non-regulated state, a kind of financial anarchy if you will, as those tasked with oversight did not know or understand the nature of the transactions or vehicles that were being created and traded. Regulation can only take place if you know what you are supposed to regulate. Most bankers did not understand the nature of the transactions they were undertaking only that revenue streams were created upon which they could further arbitrage risk to create further revenue streams etc. etc.
 
That's probably a fair comment!

I think the issue was not deregulation or regulation it was the fact that the markets were left in a non-regulated state, a kind of financial anarchy if you will, as those tasked with oversight did not know or understand the nature of the transactions or vehicles that were being created and traded. Regulation can only take place if you know what you are supposed to regulate. Most bankers did not understand the nature of the transactions they were undertaking only that revenue streams were created upon which they could further arbitrage risk to create further revenue streams etc. etc.

You mean like (D) Barney Frank who was chair of the oversight committee for Fannie and Freddy but also having sexual relations with one of the CEO's who ran a company that Mr. Frank was to oversee yet there's totally no scandal there or conflict of interest?

...Or like when the accountants of Fannie and Freddy opened their books to the regulator, who saw that they were cooking the books Enron style and took his findings to Congress, only to be attacked by the Democrats in charge of regulatory oversight as a racist while they praised the CEO's of Fannie and Freddy for their "outstanding leadership" and came to the conclusion that any investigation into these GSE's was a political witchhunt because the companies were financially sound and in no threat of collapse?

Having government involved in business practices is not only a bad idea, its a recipe for fraud, waste, corruption and economic disaster. It wasn't the "market" who was left unregulated, nobody was overseeing the oversee-ers in government who orchestrated this fraud and who have since swept it under the rug by blaming Capitalism and the "free" market. Government knew of the danger CDS's posed but chose to ignore the warnings and instead used their positions to encourage that the practice not only continue, but be expanded and insured by the taxpayer.
 
If you broaden the definition of Marxism, socialism, fascism, progressivism, and a few other -isms enough, then your supermarket tabloid newspaper does have a point.

But, to conclude that the US is following the same path that led to the end of the Soviets is much like blaming the problems of the Soviets on the US, which is something else your tabloid author has done.

List for me the factors you believe to have been responsible for the collapse of the soviet union.
 
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