On the absurdity of partisanship

[dogtowner]

but there is something very new about people agreeing on what is right and what is wrong.

thats true. but prior to that it was pretty consistent across time and cultures.

and there is something very new about absolute, black and white right and wrong.

thats true. but prior to that it was pretty consistent across time and cultures.

Is it wrong to steal?
Even if the alternative is to allow a child to starve?

yes. beg if you must.

You don't choose to do it. You go to war when you are attacked and have no choice but to fight back.

um you're suggesting choice in your response. when can you be attacked where no choice is possible vs is possible ?

The issues with torture (or "enhanced interrogation", if you prefer) is that it was counterproductive, and that there was a whole lot more than waterboarding done, just not acknowledged.

torture can be counter productive if done wrong. not everyone agrees that waterboarding is torture. I would much rather waterboard which has a low risk of killing your captive as opposed to means. people would be shocked to learn what we do to our own soldiers to prepare them should they get captured. its safe to assume we've done a lot worse than waterboard and since the Civil War.

 

[PLC1]

The term conservative clearly does not mean embracing values of days gone by any more than the term liberal means embracing liberty.

Many of the conservatives of today would be called progressives were they to speak their ideas in 1959. And the liberals are the least promoters of liberty that we have today.

The terms today merely refer to a collection of platforms that are embraced by a group of people living under an umbrella term.

The conservatism of today is still leaps and bounds better than liberalism of today but it too is flawed.

We need to examine a world view and systematically hone it to be a sensible and coherent philosophy based on principles that work. The best chance we have of that is to take the best of conservatism and constitutionalism and libertarianism and a tiny bit of liberalism and put them together, not as a hodgepodge, as an integrated work.

Exactly right. There is no single unifying platform that is "liberal" or "conservative", but a collection of platforms, a hodgepodge of stances on different, sometimes conflicting, issues.

Whether you think the liberal's hodgepodge, ore the conservatives hodgepodge, is superior, the sensible and coherent philosophy will have elements of classic liberalism, libertarianism, conservatism.

 

[Arbopa]

I read the OP until I got to this line:

Conservative means the ways things have been. Liberal means reform and open mindedness to change.

And saw the bias right there. I figured the rest probably was not worth reading.

 

[dogtowner]

Exactly right. There is no single unifying platform that is "liberal" or "conservative", but a collection of platforms, a hodgepodge of stances on different, sometimes conflicting, issues.

Whether you think the liberal's hodgepodge, ore the conservatives hodgepodge, is superior, the sensible and coherent philosophy will have elements of classic liberalism, libertarianism, conservatism.

you boys are starting to understand ! excellent !

all these "ism's" borrow elements of right and wrong that they agree with while ignoring others. its generally in application rather than concept but you know what they say about one's actions in conjunction with one's words.

 

[PLC1]

thats true. but prior to that it was pretty consistent across time and cultures.



thats true. but prior to that it was pretty consistent across time and cultures.

umm.. not so much. Different times and different cultures have produced different ideas of right and wrong. Have you read the Old Testament's values on slavery, for example?

yes. beg if you must.

That wasn't an option. The option was to let the child starve.

um you're suggesting choice in your response. when can you be attacked where no choice is possible vs is possible?

I suppose you do have a point there. If the other alternative is annihilation or slavery, then there really is no choice. War is the only viable option. In that case, it has to be all out war, no half way nation building sorts of wars.

WWII is an example of no viable choice. Vietnam and Iraq are examples of choosing to go to war. WWII produced a nation at war. Vietnam produced the youth at war. Iraq has resulted in the military at war. There was no total commitment to victory. War was the wrong choice.

torture can be counter productive if done wrong. not everyone agrees that waterboarding is torture. I would much rather waterboard which has a low risk of killing your captive as opposed to means. people would be shocked to learn what we do to our own soldiers to prepare them should they get captured. its safe to assume we've done a lot worse than waterboard and since the Civil War.

Yes, that is safe to assume.

Torture was counterproductive in a war in which we were trying to win over a people and establish democracy. It was counterproductive in a war in which we had to maintain the moral high ground. It is counterproductive when we want to be a voice for human rights.

 

[dogtowner]

umm.. not so much. Different times and different cultures have produced different ideas of right and wrong. Have you read the Old Testament's values on slavery, for example?

yup

That wasn't an option. The option was to let the child starve.

the child isn't likely to die before right action could be taken. if you have to use an impossibly narrow example perhaps you might find a better one. short answer is, if its not right, its wrong.

Torture was counterproductive in a war in which we were trying to win over a people and establish democracy. It was counterproductive in a war in which we had to maintain the moral high ground. It is counterproductive when we want to be a voice for human rights.

kind of highlights our folly in these recent efforts.

 

[Alias]

umm.. not so much. Different times and different cultures have produced different ideas of right and wrong. Have you read the Old Testament's values on slavery, for example?



That wasn't an option. The option was to let the child starve.



I suppose you do have a point there. If the other alternative is annihilation or slavery, then there really is no choice. War is the only viable option. In that case, it has to be all out war, no half way nation building sorts of wars.

WWII is an example of no viable choice. Vietnam and Iraq are examples of choosing to go to war. WWII produced a nation at war. Vietnam produced the youth at war. Iraq has resulted in the military at war. There was no total commitment to victory. War was the wrong choice.



Yes, that is safe to assume.

Torture was counterproductive in a war in which we were trying to win over a people and establish democracy. It was counterproductive in a war in which we had to maintain the moral high ground. It is counterproductive when we want to be a voice for human rights.

Your premise is not shared by all Americans because we are divided on whether waterboarding is torture. Therefore, you would put doing all we can to saving American lives secondary to "winning over a people". Once again, your premise is wrong. We will never win over anyone by appeasing the enemy. You crush the enemy and the people will have no choice. As long as they have a choice, you are wasting your time. Fighting a politically correct war so as not to offend is weakness and the enemy has capitalized on that. We can see that by the liberal acceptance of Islamism hiding behind "religious freedom", while doing all they can to deny American Christians cultural freedoms we've had for years in this country. You're appeasement of Islamic tyranny is undermining freedom and liberty.

 

[PLC1]

yup



the child isn't likely to die before right action could be taken. if you have to use an impossibly narrow example perhaps you might find a better one. short answer is, if its not right, its wrong.

So, is rendition of prisoners of war to a nation that has no qualms about torture a right, or is it a wrong?

How's this for a less narrow example: Your wife comes out in a new purple dress. Your first impression is, "Holy cow! You look like and eggplant!"

Now, lying is wrong.

So, do you voice your first impression, or do you say, "You look ravishing as always"?

kind of highlights our folly in these recent efforts.

Yes, yes it does.

 

[Dr.Who]

So, is rendition of prisoners of war to a nation that has no qualms about torture a right, or is it a wrong?

How's this for a less narrow example: Your wife comes out in a new purple dress. Your first impression is, "Holy cow! You look like and eggplant!"

Now, lying is wrong.

So, do you voice your first impression, or do you say, "You look ravishing as always"?





Yes, yes it does.

Renditions to countries that torture is wrong.

Waterboarding was legal and may or may not be torture. It was wrong but legal and perhaps even necessary.

I have always told my wife the truth. She learned quickly not to ask questions she did not want an honest answer to. She also learned to trust me in every detail which to me is much more important.

 

[dogtowner]

So, is rendition of prisoners of war to a nation that has no qualms about torture a right, or is it a wrong?

its intel for wartime. while I personally prefer no torture, in tel is required to shorten the war.

How's this for a less narrow example: Your wife comes out in a new purple dress. Your first impression is, "Holy cow! You look like and eggplant!"

Now, lying is wrong.

So, do you voice your first impression, or do you say, "You look ravishing as always"?

much better.

its wrong to lie, thank God my God will absolve me of this sin. of course silence is golden...

now if it were tailored so as to intentionally be eggplant-esque i might actually mention that. better she hear it from me before cash changes hands than among catty women. luckily she is used to me saying if I find something wrong for her. and I'm generally correct which is why she asks.

 

[Openmind]

Saving American lives is worth putting water up a terrorist's nose. What do you think?

Except that, it doesn't save American lives. . .it just creates more terrorists because more people hate and disrespect America!

And the person being torture LIES rather than giving real information.

 

[Arbopa]

Except that, it doesn't save American lives. . .it just creates more terrorists because more people hate and disrespect America!

I don't know if I buy that. It seems to me, that if we act they hate us, if we do not act, they hate us. It's a lose/lose, they keep breeding more hate mongering psychopaths no matter what.

 

[PLC1]

its intel for wartime. while I personally prefer no torture, in tel is required to shorten the war.



much better.

its wrong to lie, thank God my God will absolve me of this sin. of course silence is golden...

now if it were tailored so as to intentionally be eggplant-esque i might actually mention that. better she hear it from me before cash changes hands than among catty women. luckily she is used to me saying if I find something wrong for her. and I'm generally correct which is why she asks.

In that scenario, it's better to count on your god to absolve you of the sin of lying.

 

[Openmind]

I don't know if I buy that. It seems to me, that if we act they hate us, if we do not act, they hate us. It's a lose/lose, they keep breeding more hate mongering psychopaths no matter what.

And we don't?

You only have to read the hatred toward Muslims, and the hatred toward Obama and liberals in this forum to realize that hate mongering psychopaths have invaded the internet. . .and that they certainly are not all Muslims!

 

[Arbopa]

And we don't?

You only have to read the hatred toward Muslims, and the hatred toward Obama and liberals in this forum to realize that hate mongering psychopaths have invaded the internet. . .and that they certainly are not all Muslims!

I have not seen any news stories recently of 'whitebred' American's running around with explosives strapped on, blowing up muslims. Or kidnapping them and making videos while cutting their heads off. Did I miss some major news?