If the mandate is struck down, can the rest of Obamacare still stand?

[Dr.Who]

Some groups have coverage through Medicaid, others through private coverage, and most of us get insurance through work. The richest people [think Rush Limbaugh, Mitt Romney, the late Ted Kennedy] can get all the health care they want by forking over cash. So people from the very poor to the very rich can get care-money isn't the issue.

The working poor, the temporarily unemployed, and those with a preexisting condition are denied coverage. We aren't talking about a lack of money. A person with the same income as I can lack access to health care because they have a preexisting condition.

The working poor have some money and can pay for health care with it even if they do not have insurance.

If they run out of money they will then be poor and as you said they "can get care-money isn't the issue."

Do not confuse health insurance coverage with health care they are not the same. Insurance is a way to move money from people to insurance companies but health care is a way to get treatment from a doctor. Are you in favor of all people getting health care or are you in favor of all people getting health insurance? Which do you think Obamacare does?

 

[Dr.Who]

Please think about the illogic of what you're saying. In one sentence, you claim that if the currently uninsured get health care, we will have long lines, and in the next, you claim that no one is denied health care.

Uh, no that isn't remotely like what I said. Being uninsured is not the same as not having care.

I said that if we get obamacare there will be long lines and that will be an example of rationing. If the people who presently do not have insurance but do have health care do later get obamacare there will be long lines.

But right now we do not have obamacare and in the present system there are not generally long lines and not a single person in the U.S lacks access to health care. Not one citizen!

 

[Pepper]

Here's what you quoted, which is exactly what I have been telling you-that health care is rationed in the US.

"Healthcare rationing in the United States exists in various forms. Access to private health care insurance is rationed based on price and ability to pay. Those not able to afford a health insurance policy are unable to acquire one, and sometimes insurance companies pre-screen applicants for pre-existing medical conditions and either decline to cover the applicant or apply additional price and medical coverage conditions.[1][2][3] Access to state Medicaid programs is restricted by income and asset limits via a means-test, and to other federal and state eligibility regulations. Health maintenance organizations (HMOs) that commonly cover the bulk of the population, restrict access to treatment via financial and clinical access limits.[4]"

So you dispute the article because it "violates" the definition supplied by an anonymous blogger on this board? You certainly give GenS a great deal of deference.

Access to health care in the United States is gained almost exclusively through health care insurance or a government health plan.

The Wikipedia article does provide a definition of rationing. Please scroll down the page. The definitions and explanations are quite clear.

The article states that if health care is a limited resource that it must be rationed. But in a country in which not a single solitary citizen does not have access to health care how can it be called a limited resource?

I started a thread here asking for one example of a single person who does not have access to health care and to date no one has provided a sample. Anyone care to provide a link for Pepper?

15.4 percent of the US population, about 46.3 million people, do not have health insurance coverage.

Further, many who are insured have exclusions on their coverage. This means that their preexisting illnesses are not covered by their policies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_coverage_in_the_United_States

Everyone does not have access to health care.

 

[Dr.Who]

The only way to respond to this is to tell you that you don't know what you're talking about. You are arguing a point you know nothing about.

I will break it down for you:

This is what was first stated:

"Health care is available to those with health insurance, great wealth, any wealth, or the ability to ask any hospital social worker to fill out the medicaid forms for them - that is everyone. No one is presently denied health care. "

This is the simplified version:

1) Health care is available to those with health insurance.

2) Health care is available to those with great wealth.

3) Health care is available to those with any wealth.

4) Health care is available to those with the ability to ask for medicaid.

5) Health care is available to all.

6) Everyone.

7) No one is denied health care.

If the first four are all true then the last two must be.

Which statement is not true?

 

[Pepper]

Uh, no that isn't remotely like what I said. Being uninsured is not the same as not having care.

I said that if we get obamacare there will be long lines and that will be an example of rationing. If the people who presently do not have insurance but do have health care do later get obamacare there will be long lines.

But right now we do not have obamacare and in the present system there are not generally long lines and not a single person in the U.S lacks access to health care. Not one citizen!

It is what you said. You worried about long lines if more people get insurance through the Affordable Care Act, and then you said everyone had health care. Health insurance, or health care through the government, is how most of us access health care.

That means that most of us are covered by workplace provided insurance, privately purchased insurance, Medicare, Medicaid, or the VA system. A few people can afford to pay cash. The rest are without coverage.

 

[Dr.Who]

That unsourced claim aside, the ACA addresses the needs of those who currently have no coverage, allowing them to enter into exchanges and supplementing their purchase of private policies. No problem, even if your claim were accurate.

You are right that ACA would take people who presently have health care but no insurance and provide them with insurance. It sounds like a great deal for the big insurance companies.

One of the unsourced claims that people on medicaid have poorer outcomes is here:

"Dozens of recent medical studies show that Medicaid patients suffer for it. In some cases, they'd do just as well without health insurance. Here's a sampling of that research:" (click on link to see a list)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704758904576188280858303612.html

 

[Pepper]

I will break it down for you:

This is what was first stated:

"Health care is available to those with health insurance, great wealth, any wealth, or the ability to ask any hospital social worker to fill out the medicaid forms for them - that is everyone. No one is presently denied health care. "

This is the simplified version:

1) Health care is available to those with health insurance.

2) Health care is available to those with great wealth.

3) Health care is available to those with any wealth.

4) Health care is available to those with the ability to ask for medicaid.

5) Health care is available to all.

6) Everyone.

7) No one is denied health care.

If the first four are all true then the last two must be.

Which statement is not true?

3 through 7 are false.

3. Any wealth? Have you had anyone in your family face serious illness? Cancer will wipe out your "any wealth" before you know it. The seriously wealthy can afford a major illness. The rest of us are toast without health insurance.

4. Simply asking for Medicaid doesn't make you eligible for Medicaid. You have to qualify for Medicaid. If all you have to do to get Medicaid is ask, why in the hell would Obama and the Democrats have needed to pass the Affordable Care Act. My God in Heaven.

5. Health care is not available to those who cannot afford to pay, and do not qualify for some time of government care, like Medicaid, Medicare, or VA benefits, and are not extremely wealthy.

6 and 7 speak for themselves.

Insurance or government benefits is how health care is accessed in the US.

You can go to the ER, you can get a vaccination at a clinic, you can hunt up a free clinic somewhere-but that is not health care. That's like giving everyone a first aid kit and telling them that they have health care. It's nonsense.

 

[Pepper]

You are right that ACA would take people who presently have health care but no insurance and provide them with insurance. It sounds like a great deal for the big insurance companies.

One of the unsourced claims that people on medicaid have poorer outcomes is here:

"Dozens of recent medical studies show that Medicaid patients suffer for it. In some cases, they'd do just as well without health insurance. Here's a sampling of that research:" (click on link to see a list)

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704758904576188280858303612.html

Thank you for the link at the end.
Mod edit: Please address the issue, not the member.

 

[Rick]

I'll repeat this every once in awhile:

That people can't get insurance is a question of affordability - not "rationing".

The affordability probem comes from government malfeasance:

- Refusal to stop the theft of american medical intellectual property by foreign governments to prop up their statist health systems.

- Refusal to clamp down on tort lawyers, who drive up prices by increasing doctors' liability insurance rates.

- State governments creating near-monopolies of a few insurance companies in their states.

- State mandates for insurance company coverage of non-diseases - eg abortion and pregnancy.

- Refusal to stop the looting of the medical system by tens of millions of illegal alien invaders.

- Refusal to stop cost-shifting of medical providers onto insured patients due to under-reimbursement for medicare and medicaid patients, thus driving up private insurance costs.

- Long lag times by the FDA in approving new meds, driving up their cost.

The leftwing solution? Give government, the entity which has screwed up the health system, vast new powers, and implement REAL rationing for everyone.

 

[Dr.Who]

Thank you for the link at the end.

As for your opening sentence, you are too ridiculous for words. LOL

Pretending that your comment as directed at my comment and not at me...

There are four parts to it:

1) some people have health care
2) the same people do not have insurance
3) the ACA would provide them with insurance
4) this helps insurance companies

Which part is not true?

 

[TruthSeeker]

3 through 7 are false.

3. Any wealth? Have you had anyone in your family face serious illness? Cancer will wipe out your "any wealth" before you know it. The seriously wealthy can afford a major illness. The rest of us are toast without health insurance.

4. Simply asking for Medicaid doesn't make you eligible for Medicaid. You have to qualify for Medicaid. If all you have to do to get Medicaid is ask, why in the hell would Obama and the Democrats have needed to pass the Affordable Care Act. My God in Heaven.

5. Health care is not available to those who cannot afford to pay, and do not qualify for some time of government care, like Medicaid, Medicare, or VA benefits, and are not extremely wealthy.

6 and 7 speak for themselves.

Insurance or government benefits is how health care is accessed in the US.

You can go to the ER, you can get a vaccination at a clinic, you can hunt up a free clinic somewhere-but that is not health care. That's like giving everyone a first aid kit and telling them that they have health care. It's nonsense.

Read this, "Doc". Just for the record, Medicaid is administered by individual STATES. There are also hundreds of PUBLIC hospitals in this country that treat uninsured people, not to mention community health care facilities and free clinics.

http://www.ehow.com/list_6887468_rights-uninsured-patients-regarding-payments_.html

 

[Rick]

Amazing - he's denying medicaid, one of the biggest financial liabilities of the federal government, even exists??

 

[Dr.Who]

3 through 7 are false.

3. Any wealth? Have you had anyone in your family face serious illness? Cancer will wipe out your "any wealth" before you know it. The seriously wealthy can afford a major illness. The rest of us are toast without health insurance.

Yes health care is in fact available to those without any wealth. They can walk into any hospital in the country and be treated for any emergency situation. If it is not an emergency then they can apply for Medicaid. In illinois the only requirement is that one does not have more than $2000 in assets and since we started by saying that this person does not have any wealth then they obviously qualify. If for some odd reason another state has some qualification that they could not meet then they would simply move to Ill. As I said everyone in this country has access to health care. If they hoops of medicaid are too difficult don't blame me.

4. Simply asking for Medicaid doesn't make you eligible for Medicaid. You have to qualify for Medicaid. If all you have to do to get Medicaid is ask, why in the hell would Obama and the Democrats have needed to pass the Affordable Care Act. My God in Heaven.

Because the purpose of the bill is not to provide health care for those without it because everyone has it. The purpose is to make more people buyers of insurance.

And yes the means to be eligible for medicare are shockingly easy - just be broke. The only way you can be broke and not qualify is if the reason you are broke is that you gave all your money away in an attempt to defraud the system by pretending to be broke when you are not.

5. Health care is not available to those who cannot afford to pay, and do not qualify for some time of government care, like Medicaid, Medicare, or VA benefits, and are not extremely wealthy.

Everybody who cannot afford to pay qualifies for medicaid. If they have less than $2000 they qualify and if they have more than $2000 then they can pay until that runs out.

6 and 7 speak for themselves.

Yes they do because absolutely everyone either can pay for health care or can get medicaid.

Insurance or government benefits is how health care is accessed in the US.

You can go to the ER, you can get a vaccination at a clinic, you can hunt up a free clinic somewhere-but that is not health care. That's like giving everyone a first aid kit and telling them that they have health care. It's nonsense.

Getting ER treatment and getting vaccinations are indeed health care. Those are not a complete list of what is included in health care but in this country virtually all conditions needing treatment are treatable either through self pay or through medicaid. If medicaid is not willing to pay to treat some condition then don't blame me blame medicaid.

 

[Dr.Who]

Amazing - he's denying medicaid, one of the biggest financial liabilities of the federal government, even exists??

I missed that denial.

 

[Rick]

I missed that denial.

You said:

4) Health care is available to those with the ability to ask for medicaid.

He said that's false.