God created the universe?

That's your answer? Is Pockets right, then, and you have no evidence?

Surely, you aren't expecting me to take political advertising seriously!

Political advertising???

You apparently know nothing about the Swift Boat Vets. Typical of libs. You just know what the lib elites on MSLSD told you.

Go here and educate yourself...for once....http://www.swiftvets.com/
and read John O'Neil"s book Unfit For Command. He was there with Kerry, so he must know the truth right? You can donate to the site too.

And this points out another HUGE difference between libs and cons. You libs get all your news from the OLD LIB MEDIA. So, naturally, you are completely uninformed. Cons get their news from both the NEW and OLD media, we evaluate and make intelligent opinions based on facts rather than filtered biased news that you base your opinions on.

So, you see, it is very difficult for us to debate because you are completely uninformed.
 
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Political advertising???

You apparently know nothing about the Swift Boat Vets. Typical of libs. You just know what the lib elites on MSLSD told you.

Go here and educate yourself...for once....http://www.swiftvets.com/
and read John O'Neil"s book Unfit For Command. He was there with Kerry, so he must know the truth right? You can donate to the site too.

And this points out another HUGE difference between libs and cons. You libs get all your news from the OLD LIB MEDIA. So, naturally, you are completely uninformed. Cons get their news from both the NEW and OLD media, we evaluate and make intelligent opinions based on facts rather than filtered biased news that you base your opinions on.

So, you see, it is very difficult for us to debate because you are completely uninformed.

Who cares? What does this have to do with the subject of the thread?
 
Let's see if we can get this thread back on track.

The statement by Gipper was as follows:

Kerry became a media superstar by LYING. And, that lead to a fortune in politics and from marrying wealthy women. And you think he had nothing to gain by lying about his experience in Vietnam. I have a bridge for sale...just send cash.

I questioned whether he could back up that theory, and so far, have been given a website that says:

Swift Vets and POWs for Truth formally disbanded and ceased all operations on May 31, 2008.

Clearly, the so called "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" is simply an organization funded by the opposition to Kerry's bid for the presidency. Now that the campaign is over, there is no longer a purpose for their continued existence. Such smear campaigns are common to politics, both in Republican and Democrat races, and are not to be taken seriously.

So, as it now stands, there is no evidence that Kerry lied about the events in Vietnam, nor that he had a motive for doing so. Yes, he was elected to the Senate, and yes, he did marry money. That he was able to do so by misrepresenting facts is not quit so evident. That making negative statements about our soldiers actually helped his political career is simply not credible.
 
That would be an appeal to authority -- a sort of informal fallacy.

The news article you provided is ambigous at best. It begs the question -- is it even possible for the material world to 'spontaneously' spawn itself? If so, then we are looking at the conclusion that the laws of nature, are not, themselves laws, but mere properties of the material world. That is circular -- matter giving rise to the laws that govern itself????

What you need to make up your mind on is whether the material world is a consequence of the laws of nature or its cause? Is stephen hawkings even clear on that one?

Do you have evidence that something other than the natural world exists? I'm curious, because from what you've posted, you seem to think that there is reason to believe that there is something other than the natural world in which we live and die. Are you trying to make an argument for the supernatural? Because I'd really enjoy reading that argument. If I'm mistaken, feel free to say so.

Unlike those who belief in God, I don't claim knowledge where none exists. Faith is a belief in something that cannot be proven. The issue is that since revelation is by definition, first person in nature, no one is under any obligation to believe one's personal revelation over that of anyone else. Farmer Bob in Kansas may be the most honest, God-fearing man we've ever known, but we still need evidence that the Virgin Mary made the crop circles in his cornfield. Science doesn't deal in such personal revelations. It only deals with what can be falsified, tested, and replicated. Which is why first person anecdotes are not scientific.

We live in a natural world governed by natural laws. When science investigates that natural world, it sees no evidence of mercy. As Dr.James Conkin, Professor Emeritus at the University of Louisville has said,
"its indifference extends from the lowest forms of life to that of man. The cries of humanity, whether the suffering is imposed by man upon himself or upon other men, or by natural laws operating independently of man, echo down the corridors of time and space and evoke no response from indifferent Nature."

People tend to be anthropomorphic about the world around them. We assign all sorts of human emotions and feelings to the things around us. We think of dogs as cute little child-like animals, when the reality is that they are domesticated carnivores that, left to their own devices, would probably think nothing of eating our rotting flesh in the forest (a prospect that we find so abhorrent that we have learned to bury our dead and in so doing, have created all sorts of religious rituals around it). We've even created gods in our own likeness, vindictive, mean, jealous, and yet caring and loving. Every contradictory emotion we have we have also assigned to our gods. The reality of the world is, whether we like it or not, much less appealing. And so it is easier to settle in on this happy delusion that there is some omnipotent spirit that actually hears and answers our prayers than it is to come to terms with the fact that we only have flawed humans like ourselves to rely upon, that the world is terrifying place in which to live, and that, by our very nature, we are not always a likable species.
 
Let's see if we can get this thread back on track.

The statement by Gipper was as follows:



I questioned whether he could back up that theory, and so far, have been given a website that says:



Clearly, the so called "Swiftboat Veterans for Truth" is simply an organization funded by the opposition to Kerry's bid for the presidency. Now that the campaign is over, there is no longer a purpose for their continued existence. Such smear campaigns are common to politics, both in Republican and Democrat races, and are not to be taken seriously.

So, as it now stands, there is no evidence that Kerry lied about the events in Vietnam, nor that he had a motive for doing so. Yes, he was elected to the Senate, and yes, he did marry money. That he was able to do so by misrepresenting facts is not quit so evident. That making negative statements about our soldiers actually helped his political career is simply not credible.

Well congrats...I am surprised you even bothered to go to the site. But, of course you are incapable of seeing the truth due to your liberal bias.

Liberal Theory as to why the site is closed...
All the Swift Boat vets retired after making a fortune stopping Kerry's presidential run. Man did they rake in the cash...
 
The real reason why the site was closed....

It had done all the damage it was going to do and it made no political or economic sense to keep it online.
 
I have posted this from time to time onvarious forums. Considering some of the current issue of this thread, I thought it would be appropriate to do so now.

-OGM
__________________

"In the great classic, near eastern religions, man's life on earth is conceived as pain and suffering, and an inheritance of man's fall from grace (or Paradise Lost). According to these traditions, after man's expulsion from paradise, because of his disobedience to his "God", man alone could not recover his erstwhile innocence, even by striving to become a superhuman of humility, submission, and kindness, etc., but only by an intercession of a god, or God-man sacrifice, could man ever hope to regain paradise, in another world, a spirit world. This "New Jerusalem" is a concept which it contrary to the universal order of things which man's science has inductively gleaned from the study of nature, and as such, (in these classic near eastern religions) man's concept of morality is a product of his vision of the world and his hope to regain lost innocence.

Man's concept of morality has most recently been connected with what he conceived to be good (moral) and to be bad (immoral). Man's immorality has been equated with "sin" in his a priori understanding: this idea of morality has changed tremendously during his short tenure on earth. But contrarily, what is moral in Nature? And has this natural morality altered through time? "Truth" and "falsehood" are important ingredients in man's consideration of morality, but truth may be defined, in the sense of subjective truth with its definitions and criteria, differing from person to person, institution to institution, place to place, and time to time.

Man is essentially incapable of committing "sin" beyond the magnitude of the individual and collective sins, for the universe is independent of mankind's hopes, fears, aspirations, and indeed, complete understanding, past, present, and future. We may, however, admit a possible transient misdemeanor in that man's efforts have had some deleterious effects on the earth, and even possibly on parts of the solar system, but certainly this can have little or no effect on the galaxy or the universe at large. Further, the earth and sister planets and their satellites are almost insignificant parts of our almost insignificant star system in an almost insignificant galaxy, and in an almost infinitesimal speck in our universe (be it cosmos or chaos matters not).

Man's paradigm of morality is religion based on axiomatic reasoning, not subject to objective proof, personified as God, omnipotent throughout time and space. According to this paradigm, Man need not strive to obtain knowledge from any source other than religion for all is given by God; submission to his God will make all known which man needs in his life, and the rest on a "need to know basis" will be revealed to him in the after world. This is a lazy system for man need not strive to find truth, but it is handed down from above: (In this belief system) All things are known to God and all man needs to do is apply and follow these laws which are made known by individual revelation from God to man.

Man's concept, and Nature's concept of reality and harmony differ in the highest order. Man has accused his a priori deities of duplicity, for men have always asked the question, "Why should good men suffer",and very often the misery of good men is far greater than that of those who do not conform to the highest criteria for goodness as defined by man's totemic customs and religions. This question has been asked and answers have been attempted ever since man realized his "selfness" and became an introspective creature.

In the last analysis of the morality of Nature, we see no evidence of mercy in the cosmos; its indifference extends from the lowest forms of life to that of man. The cries of humanity, whether the suffering is imposed by man upon himself or upon other men, or by natural laws operating independently of man, echo down the corridors of time and space and evoke no response from indifferent Nature.

These anguished cries and pitiful prayers for help are merely cosmic background "noise" to which Nature must (not out of evil intent, spite, revenge, or punishment, but by necessity) turn a "deaf ear"; for were it not so, Nature itself would be destroyed by these same laws which Nature had ordained "in the beginning" (if there was one) and must continue to operate in perpetuity (if time and the universe are truly eternal), or there would be and ending to the cosmic laws: a true "twilight of the gods", and of cosmic harmony, Chaos never returning to Cosmos."

- James E. Conkin, Professor Emeritus, University of Louisville, 2002
_____________________________________

And I always interject a bit here for clarification. Religious people often tell me if one doesn't believe in God then one has no purpose in life, or that there can be no meaningful purpose in life. My response is that having a meaningful purpose in life is not dependent on a belief in the supernatural. Albert Einstein once said:

“A human being is part of a whole, called by us the Universe, a part limited in time space, and human consciousness. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, as something separated from the rest a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest us. Our task (purpose) must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. While no one can achieve this completely, the striving for such achievement is a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security.”

So we are a tiny, almost microscopic part of the universe, this universe (I took this image on 09/05/2010):

Autosaveb-1.jpg


There are at least 13 galaxies in this image, which represents a portion of our sky that is smaller than a first quarter moon. All of which contain billions of star systems and billions of solar systems. If I can resolver 13 galaxies on a digital sensor in a matter of 12 minutes, imagine how many others are out there that didn't rise above the signal to noise ratio of the sensor.

As Carl Sagan once said, "if it's just us, it seems like an awful waste of space". And if it isn't just us, imagine all the other civilizations out there with similar questions about themselves, about life, and the universe. Are they coming to the same axiomatic conclusions we often come to, or have they evolved a different set of reasoning skills altogether? If we are to ever to advance our knowledge of the universe, of which we are a part, and find the answers to these and many other questions, I think we need to evolve a different set of reasoning skills as well. Because "God did it" simply doesn't explain anything.

how much does something to take those pics cost? I was thinking about getting some type of telescope or something
 
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how much does something to take those pics cost? I was thinking about getting some type of telescope or something

My set up is very expensive. About $2,000 for the camera, about $800 for the primary OTA, coma corrector, mounting rings and losmandy dovetail plates, about $400 for the autoguider camera and scope, and about $5,000 for the Go To equatorial mount and tripod. It is all run from a laptop computer, which cost about $900. Of course, I didn't buy this all at once, but built it up over about seven years. It's probably the best system you can get for the price.
 
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