Beggars in Spain

Then you have NO IDEA of what REAL charity means!

You just enjoy "playing God" with the life of "some" people. . .

Not giving based on ones personal assesment is in no way playing God.

After all progressives give far less than Christians and while they may be selfish, or they may just prefer to use the power of the state to give other people's money, they are certainly not just playing God.
 
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You have no idea what you're talking about...

Two people on the street both asking for a dollar. I only have one dollar to spare. The first person wants it to buy crack and get high, the other wants to buy food. Is it your belief that both people are equally worthy of my charity? Would you give each .50c?

The point is well made.

And thanks for sharing what you know about Rand since I know very little and have been learning a lot here.

So far each time I have posted a critique of Rand you have offered evidence that has at least softened that critique for me. Who knows where that will lead?
 
You have no idea what you're talking about...

Two people on the street both asking for a dollar. I only have one dollar to spare. The first person wants it to buy crack and get high, the other wants to buy food. Is it your belief that both people are equally worthy of my charity? Would you give each .50c?

Based on your knowledge of Rand if those persons had zero to offer you would you give to one of them anyway?

Or would you argue that there is some way in which they do have something to offer? (that would be my position)
 
I think you are joking there.

The metaphor of beggars in Spain comes from a line from one of the characters in the book of that title. A beggar in Spain refers to any person at all who finds himself in need of some other persons help when he has nothing to offer in exchange for that help.


fair enough. maybe it would have made more sense to me is they were referred to as Anybegger. :D
 
Objectivism starts to appear to me to be utilitarian and selfish.

Selfish*, yes, Utilitarian, definitely not...

Utilitarianism is a union of hedonism and Christianity. The first teaches man to love pleasure; the second, to love his neighbor. The union consists in teaching man to love his neighbor’s pleasure. To be exact, the Utilitarians teach that an action is moral if its result is to maximize pleasure among men in general. This theory holds that man’s duty is to serve—according to a purely quantitative standard of value. He is to serve not the well-being of the nation or of the economic class, but “the greatest happiness of the greatest number,” regardless of who comprise it in any given issue. As to one’s own happiness, says [John Stuart] Mill, the individual must be “disinterested” and “strictly impartial”; he must remember that he is only one unit out of the dozens, or millions, of men affected by his actions. “All honor to those who can abnegate for themselves the personal enjoyment of life,” says Mill, “when by such renunciation they contribute worthily to increase the amount of happiness in the world.”
As for Selfishness:

The meaning ascribed in popular usage to the word “selfishness” is not merely wrong: it represents a devastating intellectual “package-deal,” which is responsible, more than any other single factor, for the arrested moral development of mankind.

In popular usage, the word “selfishness” is a synonym of evil; the image it conjures is of a murderous brute who tramples over piles of corpses to achieve his own ends, who cares for no living being and pursues nothing but the gratification of the mindless whims of any immediate moment.

Yet the exact meaning and dictionary definition of the word “selfishness” is: concern with one’s own interests.

This concept does not include a moral evaluation; it does not tell us whether concern with one’s own interests is good or evil; nor does it tell us what constitutes man’s actual interests. It is the task of ethics to answer such questions.
...
If it is true that what I mean by “selfishness” is not what is meant conventionally, then this is one of the worst indictments of altruism: it means that altruism permits no concept of a self-respecting, self-supporting man—a man who supports his life by his own effort and neither sacrifices himself nor others. It means that altruism permits no view of men except as sacrificial animals and profiteers-on-sacrifice, as victims and parasites—that it permits no concept of a benevolent co-existence among men—that it permits no concept of justice.


In the book the point is made that we belong to a community and are tied to each other through an "ecology". The fault with that as I see it is that the ecology mentioned in the book is a part of our social interactions but the author applies it to our economic interactions - this is a main flaw that many socialists make.

You may, or may not, find the following relevant to your observation:

A man thinks and works alone. A man cannot rob, exploit or rule—alone. Robbery, exploitation and ruling presuppose victims. They imply dependence. They are the province of the second-hander.
...
The choice is not self-sacrifice or domination. The choice is independence or dependence. The code of the creator or the code of the second-hander. This is the basic issue. It rests upon the alternative of life or death.

The code of the creator is built on the needs of the reasoning mind which allows man to survive. The code of the second-hander is built on the needs of a mind incapable of survival. All that which proceeds from man’s independent ego is good. All that which proceeds from man’s dependence upon men is evil.
- ARL, Selfishness

For me I am my brothers keeper because according to my God my fellow travelers are not strangers but are fellow children of God, I have a duty to love them as much as myself. Additionally, their heavenly father wants what is best for them and it makes Him happy when they are cared for. As a person who is grateful to my God and loves my God I would want to make Him happy by helping them. I am confident that all of that could be expressed in terms of objectivism since my happiness is a part of all of that.
Must you sacrifice yourself to the good of others in order to serve God and make him happy?

What is the moral code of altruism? The basic principle of altruism is that man has no right to exist for his own sake, that service to others is the only justification of his existence, and that self-sacrifice is his highest moral duty, virtue and value.

Do not confuse altruism with kindness, good will or respect for the rights of others. These are not primaries, but consequences, which, in fact, altruism makes impossible. The irreducible primary of altruism, the basic absolute, is self-sacrifice—which means; self-immolation, self-abnegation, self-denial, self-destruction—which means: the self as a standard of evil, the selfless as a standard of the good.

Do not hide behind such superficialities as whether you should or should not give a dime to a beggar. That is not the issue. The issue is whether you do or do not have the right to exist without giving him that dime. The issue is whether you must keep buying your life, dime by dime, from any beggar who might choose to approach you. The issue is whether the need of others is the first mortgage on your life and the moral purpose of your existence. The issue is whether man is to be regarded as a sacrificial animal. Any man of self-esteem will answer: “No.” Altruism says: “Yes.”
- ARL, Altruism
Do you consider your right to exist contingent upon your service to your fellow man?

If you really believe you must love all of mankind as much as you love yourself, then you would have to feel guilty about whatever accomplishments you've made that improved your own life while the whole of mankind did not see an equal benefit as a result of your own, individual, effort.

But I think that the spirit of the way the two points of view are expressed does make a difference; the same actions if the result of brotherly love or the result of benevolent self interest has a completely different flavor in each case. (did that last bit make sense? In fact I felt compelled to add the word "benevolent" just to make objectivism appear less selfish)
Rand explains it as "rational self interest" and based on your use of the word "selfish" (wanting to make it appear "less selfish"), you would seem to accept the Altruist conceptualization of Selfishness as a synonym of evil, a word that suggests immorality, rather than seeing selfishness as an Amoral (neither moral or immoral) word that describes an individual's interest in one's own self.

As Rand points out, acting within the bounds of your own rational self interest (selfishly) does not preclude acts of kindness or generosity, it merely precludes sacrificing yourself to others, or others to yourself.
 
The point is well made.

And thanks for sharing what you know about Rand since I know very little and have been learning a lot here.

So far each time I have posted a critique of Rand you have offered evidence that has at least softened that critique for me. Who knows where that will lead?

Thank you, I appreciate the opportunity.
 
Based on your knowledge of Rand if those persons had zero to offer you would you give to one of them anyway?
It would be more based on my knowledge of Objectivism rather than Rand herself but to answer your question, so long as I did not consider my generosity to be counterproductive to my own rational self interest, I could be charitable to either, or to both, it entirely depends on the specific circumstances.

Or would you argue that there is some way in which they do have something to offer? (that would be my position)

I'll tell you a true story from real life... I lived near campus at the local college for a time, there was a homeless guy, Reggie, who "sold jokes" for a nickle each. Some of his jokes were good, others were bad, but the point is he tried to offer something of value for my money. Now I don't know whether Reggie was using my money to buy booze, drugs, or to keep from going hungry, it didn't really matter. Unlike the other the other beggars, he was offering something more than an open palm. I saw his effort as a virtue and it's that virtue, not his need, that I rewarded with my generosity.

That may not be the answer you were looking for but that's a real life example of me using my own rational self interest as a means of deciding who, if anyone, should benefit from my charity.
 
It would be more based on my knowledge of Objectivism rather than Rand herself but to answer your question, so long as I did not consider my generosity to be counterproductive to my own rational self interest, I could be charitable to either, or to both, it entirely depends on the specific circumstances.



I'll tell you a true story from real life... I lived near campus at the local college for a time, there was a homeless guy, Reggie, who "sold jokes" for a nickle each. Some of his jokes were good, others were bad, but the point is he tried to offer something of value for my money. Now I don't know whether Reggie was using my money to buy booze, drugs, or to keep from going hungry, it didn't really matter. Unlike the other the other beggars, he was offering something more than an open palm. I saw his effort as a virtue and it's that virtue, not his need, that I rewarded with my generosity.

That may not be the answer you were looking for but that's a real life example of me using my own rational self interest as a means of deciding who, if anyone, should benefit from my charity.

I still appreciate you knowledge and willingness to share it.

How did his virtue benefit you? I can understand how you would benefit if you enjoyed the joke or even if you just enjoyed the chance that you would enjoy the joke. But suppose he truly had nothing to offer? If we all gave based only on our own self interest wouldn't he die?

In the circumstance where you had no benefit to your own self interest (where perhaps it was counter to your interest) would you never give even if the other person benefited a whole lot and it cost you only a little? Or slightly different question suppose that you did have a very tiny benefit to your self interest but the cost to you was larger than the benefit while the benefit to the other was huge?

I just think that the attempt to quantify it so rationally is a mistake. I also think that no man is an island and everyone contributes something no matter how little we can measure what he offers to our self interest.

None of this, of course, should be construed to say that the gov should take my place or your place as the rightful giver of that help. And if the gov did assume my place as the giver of help it is still taking the money from me and you first.

Lastly, suppose that many of us do give based solely on our rational self interest. And suppose that the result is the most equitable outcome possible. But suppose that the left can never see the logic of that and as a result they are able to create a situation where the gov does assume your role as giver and takes your money in order to give it. Isn't this situation counter to your self-interest?

Creating another scenario, suppose that he had nothing at all to give and therefore did not deserve to receive. But suppose that being in his shoes were somewhat unpredictable and any of us could at any time find ourselves being in need with nothing to offer. Would it be in our self interest to give to those with nothing to offer in exchange for the knowledge that were we in his shoes someone would do the same for us? An insurance policy of sorts.
 
How did his virtue benefit you?
Perhaps you misunderstood the concept of rewarding virtue rather than need. Two people are asking me for money, one is willing to earn it, the other thinks I should just give it to him because he needs it. Rewarding need only creates dependence and encourages need. Rewarding virtue encourages virtue and that leads to indepenence.

If we all gave based only on our own self interest wouldn't he die?
No. The idea is that you don't sacrifice yourself to others in the process of being charitable. To better illustrate this concept, lets say your monthly mortgage is $500. Rather than paying your mortgage, you give away that money to the local homeless shelter. Soon your bank forcloses on your home and you end up in that homeless shelter. As a result you also lose your job and then your car. Sacrificing yourself to others has eliminated your ability to help others and you're now the one dependent on the charity of others.

In the circumstance where you had no benefit to your own self interest (where perhaps it was counter to your interest) would you never give even if the other person benefited a whole lot and it cost you only a little?
This question lacks significant context. In a general sense, if the affect on my well being is neutral, then I may or may not give, depends on the circumstances. If the affect on my well being is negative, then I would probably not, but again, depends on the circumstances.

I just think that the attempt to quantify it so rationally is a mistake.
I would agree if it were done by government decree but we're talking about each individual making these choices for himself. If you see it as being in your rational self interest to support a homeless shelter instead of paying your mortgage, that would be entirely for you to decide.

But suppose that the left can never see the logic of that and as a result they are able to create a situation where the gov does assume your role as giver and takes your money in order to give it. Isn't this situation counter to your self-interest?
That seems to be what the government is doing now, and no, it's not in my self interest.

Would it be in our self interest to give to those with nothing to offer in exchange for the knowledge that were we in his shoes someone would do the same for us? An insurance policy of sorts.
You could call giving money to a homeless shelter instead of paying your mortgage an insurance policy if you like, but I would consider it a self fulfilling prophecy. Besides, virtue is within reach of any individual. Whatever you have in your life, you have because of your virtue, i.e., your skills, knowledge, attitude etc., you didn't get where you're at in life by giving away everything you owned everytime you came into possession of something of value.
 
"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or that we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit we just don't want to do that."

Steven Colbert

Amazing how a comedian cuts to the bone with a single statement-

but then I'm an athiest, what do I care?
 
"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or that we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit we just don't want to do that."

Steven Colbert

Amazing how a comedian cuts to the bone with a single statement-

but then I'm an athiest, what do I care?

So, is it true that you think the American people do NOT help the poor? How is it that you come by this conclusion, if that is your conclusion?

Is it your belief (like most lefties) that high taxation (really confiscation at the point of gun by a huge oppressive statist government) of the productive class, is what we Americans must accept to help the poor?

Is it your belief that ANY reduction in the statist government's budget, hurts the poor?
 
"If this is going to be a Christian nation that doesn't help the poor, either we have to pretend that Jesus was just as selfish as we are, or that we've got to acknowledge that He commanded us to love the poor and serve the needy without condition and then admit we just don't want to do that."

Steven Colbert

Amazing how a comedian cuts to the bone with a single statement-

but then I'm an athiest, what do I care?

Well said, except that by our actions we prove as a nation that we do want to do that. We are the most giving group of people in any nation on earth.

Are you saying that as an atheist you do not care and therefore do not give?

But lets suppose that it were true that as a nation we did not want to give to help the poor. If that were so then any government scheme to tax people to help the poor would be counter to the will of the people and should not be enacted in our republic.
 
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Perhaps you misunderstood the concept of rewarding virtue rather than need. Two people are asking me for money, one is willing to earn it, the other thinks I should just give it to him because he needs it. Rewarding need only creates dependence and encourages need. Rewarding virtue encourages virtue and that leads to indepenence.


No. The idea is that you don't sacrifice yourself to others in the process of being charitable. To better illustrate this concept, lets say your monthly mortgage is $500. Rather than paying your mortgage, you give away that money to the local homeless shelter. Soon your bank forcloses on your home and you end up in that homeless shelter. As a result you also lose your job and then your car. Sacrificing yourself to others has eliminated your ability to help others and you're now the one dependent on the charity of others.


This question lacks significant context. In a general sense, if the affect on my well being is neutral, then I may or may not give, depends on the circumstances. If the affect on my well being is negative, then I would probably not, but again, depends on the circumstances.


I would agree if it were done by government decree but we're talking about each individual making these choices for himself. If you see it as being in your rational self interest to support a homeless shelter instead of paying your mortgage, that would be entirely for you to decide.


That seems to be what the government is doing now, and no, it's not in my self interest.


You could call giving money to a homeless shelter instead of paying your mortgage an insurance policy if you like, but I would consider it a self fulfilling prophecy. Besides, virtue is within reach of any individual. Whatever you have in your life, you have because of your virtue, i.e., your skills, knowledge, attitude etc., you didn't get where you're at in life by giving away everything you owned everytime you came into possession of something of value.

Correct me if I am wrong but it appears that most of that supports the justification for not giving because it is counter to ones self interest. Where is the justification to give due to ones self interest?
 
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