Are there any progressive ideas being advance that are not statist?

What I am saying is that most progressive leaders do not believe in economic statism in the long range, but do believe that, in cases of severe economic downturn (not provoked by "progressives" by the way), when private businesses and corporations are unable or (as it is occuring at this time) unwilling to hire to give an economic boost, only a government intervention can provide that boost. It was true for the great depression, and it is still true today. That doesn't mean that government intervention in a healthy economy is promoted or encouraged by most progressives. It isn't!

That is kind of vague and includes a lot of reservations.

Would the state when it intervened in any way stop people from doing things or insist that people do other things? Would it use funds taken from citizens? If so (and so far all proposals I have seen do) then what you have suggested there is statism.

And yes, gov intervention in a healthy economy is most certainly promoted and encouraged by most progressives. Every single regulation on the books is an example and every time those regulations come from progressives then they promote it.

I find it hard to believe that you post a paragraph that most everyone else here can recognize as statist and then claim it is not.
 
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So if the GOP is demonstrating social statism not by advocating control of most aspects of social life but merely by increasing their attempts to control social life then we should apply the same standard to progressives.

Scrap the challenge above and support the idea that the progressives are not attempting to increasingly control the lives and labors of the people of the US?

The GOP IS demonstrating that they want to control every aspect of society, from women's body, to bedroom encounters, to religious expressions, and to marriage laws. Even to the extend of rewriting history books, and imposing their own "view" of family and "appropriate relationship" to school children!
The GOP is also attempting to increase control of government on labor by trying to abolish LABOR SUPPORTED Unions.

Your challenge was to show that progressives are not increasingly trying to control the lives and labors of people. You are free to show that the GOP is but it does not make for a good discussion if you just ignore whatever you want to ignore.

Is the GOP trying to control a woman who would kill a living human? Yes, I think that protecting a right to life is the role of government and would excuse the example from being statism.

I know of no bedroom encounters that the GOP wants to control. Tell us about a leader who is trying to do that.

You can also tell us about how the GOP is controlling religious expressions. The way I see it the shoe is almost always on the other foot.

Expanding marriage laws to restrict the behavior of even more people would most certainly be statist. The GOP is not trying to expand marriage laws. That would be the democrats who want to add restrictions on how gay people can call themselves married or not by requiring that gay people get a license.

You are probably right when it comes to education. Lets let teachers and schools and administrators and students be free to be themselves. Then both sides can stop being statist in the classroom.

The labor unions enjoy special privileges that are examples of statism. The GOP wants to undo those.
 
That is kind of vague and includes a lot of reservations.

Would the state when it intervened in any way stop people from doing things or insist that people do other things? Would it use funds taken from citizens? If so (and so far all proposals I have seen do) then what you have suggested there is statism.

And yes, gov intervention in a healthy economy is most certainly promoted and encouraged by most progressives. Every single regulation on the books is an example and every time those regulations come from progressives then they promote it.

I find it hard to believe that you post a paragraph that most everyone else here can recognize as statist and then claim it is not.


My point is that I do not believe that "statism" is always a negative. In fact, in a time like today, and in the time of the great depression, it is the only way out

However, you seem to have rejected the idea that statism, while relating only to "government" in the past, has now extended to Corporate statism,. . and since the corporations are basically in charge of the government and have been for at least 10 years, maybe even 20, what you see as statism is better defined, in my opinion, as "corporate statism."

You also didn't address my pointing out that while progressive may be more incline to engage in "economic statism," the conservative have a special liking for "social statism."

I do appreciate your willingness to discuss without insults, though! Thank you.

I also want to mention that, as a relative new comer to THIS forum, I have never read the word "statism" in any post. So when it appeared in not one but two posts, after I heard it on Fox News a day before, it seemed a strange coincidence.

However, I recognize that I have not explore the archive to see what all of you had been talking about for the last 3 years!

I also resent the fact that some in this forum seem to believe that being a new comer is some sort of disease and qualifies one for third grade citizenship.

This is childish and uncalled for. Again, I thank you for not engaging in that kind of misguided "elitism."
 
I have given several exemples of "Social statism" by the GOP, and YES they do want to force their social norms on gay people, not by "forcing them" to get a licence from the state to get married (in fact, just the opposite) by refusing to acknowledge the CHOICE that people make of their partners. .

The license IS the example of statism. Those who advocate license advocate statism, those who claim no need for a license are on the side of freedom. That is the nature of a license.

Ignoring what a person does could never be statism. Acknowledging what a person does very well might be - and in the case of congress more often is than not. When the state does not acknowledge the choice it permits them to do freely as they want. If it does acknowledge that choice (and requires a license, or a title, or a ceremony in front of an official, or a fee, etc) then that is the statist act.

I can hardly see how you can sat that NOT forcing someone to get a license is statism.

We need to remove the need for a license by all the other people too.

.by trying to impose a narrow definition of marriage that eliminate the right of people to choose who they want to marry. . .I believe there is even a new movement in Mississipi to reinstate as UNLAWFUL interacial marriage!

The defintion is what it is. But if gay people want to create their own definition and go in front of any willing pastor, priest, shaman, then who is stopping them?

The interacial marriage thing would be statism because it tells people what they cannot do. does it tell two people of different races that they cannot stand on a beach with their hippy friend and do whatever ceremony they want and call themselves married? Or does it say that they won't be given a license? Because not being given a piece of paper that restricts one is actually freedom.
 
The license IS the example of statism. Those who advocate license advocate statism, those who claim no need for a license are on the side of freedom. That is the nature of a license.

Ignoring what a person does could never be statism. Acknowledging what a person does very well might be - and in the case of congress more often is than not. When the state does not acknowledge the choice it permits them to do freely as they want. If it does acknowledge that choice (and requires a license, or a title, or a ceremony in front of an official, or a fee, etc) then that is the statist act.

I can hardly see how you can sat that NOT forcing someone to get a license is statism.

We need to remove the need for a license by all the other people too.



The defintion is what it is. But if gay people want to create their own definition and go in front of any willing pastor, priest, shaman, then who is stopping them?

The interacial marriage thing would be statism because it tells people what they cannot do. does it tell two people of different races that they cannot stand on a beach with their hippy friend and do whatever ceremony they want and call themselves married? Or does it say that they won't be given a license? Because not being given a piece of paper that restricts one is actually freedom.

Deciding that "some people" are worthy of a licence, and "other people" who desire a licence are not allowed to obtain it is social statism.

Now, if EVERYONE was free to either get a licence or not, as they chose, than I could see your point.

In this case (Gay rights), allowing special tax and other benefits to people who are "allowed" to get a licence, but refusing those special taxes and benefits to those who are NOT ALLOWED to get a licence is social statism.
 
Corporatism is supported by GREED, greed for money, and greed for power. While it is true that you find SOME of those people on both side of the aisle, it is obviously much more frequent on the RIGHT side of the aisle. Why don't you show evidence that this is not true?

Of the last two president both have been involved in corporatism. One democrat involved in corporatism and one republican involved in corporatism. Even Steven. Every single time one of them plays favorites they have engaged in it.

Obama
http://biggovernment.com/capitolconfidential/2011/04/20/google-and-obamas-corporatism/

Bush
No need to post a link as you will require no persuasion at all. (though to be completely frank I expect that if you even opened the link regarding obama's corporitism you won't believe any of it.)

Your turn. Show us that the GOP is more corporatist than the Democrats. Given your track record for answering questions or rising to challenges it does not seem that you will even make an attempt. And that is not very admirable nor does it make anyone here give you more respect than they otherwise would. But it would go some part of the way toward getting less flack from some around here.
 
Of the last two president both have been involved in corporatism. One democrat involved in corporatism and one republican involved in corporatism. Even Steven. Every single time one of them plays favorites they have engaged in it.

Obama
http://biggovernment.com/capitolconfidential/2011/04/20/google-and-obamas-corporatism/

Bush
No need to post a link as you will require no persuasion at all. (though to be completely frank I expect that if you even opened the link regarding obama's corporitism you won't believe any of it.)

Your turn. Show us that the GOP is more corporatist than the Democrats.

In this administration, the efforts to regulate the excess of the banks and Wall Street, have been severely impaired by, not the Left, but the RIGHT.

The RIGHT wants to remove most regulations from Corporations, including EPA regulations, in order to give a "blank check" to big corporations.

The RIGHT is waging a war on the Unions, because Unions give too much bargaining power to individual workers, which interferes with the corporations need to control their workers and provide them ONLY with the minimum of their demands.

Those three recent exemples are enough to convince me that, although the majority of politicians on both sides of the aisle will bend over backward to please their corporate sponsors, the Right is obviously more committed to giving corporations what they want
 
I beg to differ. Corporatism driven to the extreme (as it has been in the last 10 years) does engender fascism.

"

So you are saying that corporatism has engendered fascism.

Engender means "to bring into existence" (like when a cloud causes a storm) But the cloud is not the storm the cloud merely engenders the storm. In fact for one thing to cause another thing to come into existence the first thing must exist while the second thing does not. Corporatism is not the same as fascism but you are arguiing that corporatism can cause fascism AND that it has.

But fascism is defined as having a dictator. We have had no dictators and corporatism is just as likely to exist without a dictator as with one.
 
. and since the corporations are basically in charge of the government and have been for at least 10 years, maybe even 20

More like 150 years when the Whig Lincoln won the White House but of course it was to a lesser degree going back centuries if not millenia.
 
In this administration, the efforts to regulate the excess of the banks and Wall Street, have been severely impaired by, not the Left, but the RIGHT.

Its only since January that the current administration did not control both houses of Congress. And since Jan only the House. Severely would seem to be an overstatement.

The RIGHT wants to remove most regulations from Corporations, including EPA regulations, in order to give a "blank check" to big corporations.

a) regulation has proven ineffective at doing anything more than picking winners and losers.
b) can not offer a check blank or otherwise except to the government but perhaps that was the intent to begin with.

The RIGHT is waging a war on the Unions, because Unions give too much bargaining power to individual workers, which interferes with the corporations need to control their workers and provide them ONLY with the minimum of their demands.

Unions provide collective bargaining which is the polar opposite of bargaining for the individual worker.
 
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In this administration, the efforts to regulate the excess of the banks and Wall Street, have been severely impaired by, not the Left, but the RIGHT. The RIGHT wants to remove most regulations from Corporations, including EPA regulations, in order to give a "blank check" to big corporations.


When corporatism rears its ugly head it does so through legislation not through the lack of legislation. The regulation you are admiring just might be corporatism. But the lack of regulation will not be corporatism. Corporatism cannot exist without legislation/regulation.

The RIGHT is waging a war on the Unions, because Unions give too much bargaining power to individual workers, which interferes with the corporations need to control their workers and provide them ONLY with the minimum of their demands.

Unions are in fact a very big corporations. The illegitimate support of unions IS corporatism.
Those three recent exemples are enough to convince me that, although the majority of politicians on both sides of the aisle will bend over backward to please their corporate sponsors, the Right is obviously more committed to giving corporations what they want


You were supposed to say that my giving an equal number of examples was not proof that the amount of corporatism is equal. If you had you would be right. At best it was proof that it happens on both sides but does not tell us by how much.

[As an analogy I could tell you that there are more odd numbers than even numbers by pointing out that 3,5,7, and 9 are all odd numbers. But that would not be good evidence.

I could even say that for every one even number you name (for example 4) there will be two odd numbers that follow it ( 5 and 7). But that too would not be proof.]

Then saying that you would know that just giving three examples (all false) against one side is also not proof that one side has more corporatism. If you want to count corporatism you have to have a way to measure it and then compare it.

The way corportism works is that a lobbyist gives money to a politician or a party and then that politician or party makes a law that favors the lobbyist. We could try to measure how the legislation favors which business and who made it but that would be pretty hard. Or we could get a rough picture of to whom the lobbyists give more money.

And what do we find;

" Democrats have taken more money from lobbyists than Republicans during the past 15 years, according to an independent analysis of campaign contributions. Since the 1990 election cycle, Democrats have accepted more than $53 million from lobbyists while Republicans have taken more than $48 million for their election campaigns, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

Data provided by the nonpartisan group also shows that when Democrats controlled Congress in the early 1990s, they consistently hauled in more than 70 percent of the town’s lobbyist money. The group is a leading critic of Texas Republican Rep. Tom DeLay’s ties to lobbyists. “When the Democrats were in charge, they were getting an incredibly higher amount of lobbyist money compared to Republicans,” said Brian Nick, spokesman for the National Republican Senatorial Committee. “Now that the tables are turned there is parity between the two parties.” Last year, for instance, Republicans took in 55 percent of the lobbyist money, which roughly corresponds to their majority share in Congress. "

What I am not saying is that dems take more money. What I am saying is that the party in power takes more money. The corporations are not stupid they don't give just to one party. They often give to both and they give more to whoever is more likely to give them what they want.

The corporation is slimy but it is far slimier for an elected representative to take that money and reward it with legislation.
 
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