Sub humans who left illegals to die get life in prison.

[PLC1]

Final Plea in Human Smuggling Deaths


More than 70 immigrants were being transported to Houston from Harlingen in South Texas when the truck driver abandoned the trailer at a truck stop near Victoria, about 100 miles southwest of Houston, in 2003. The victims died of dehydration, overheating and suffocation.
Torres-Ortega faces life in prison and a maximum $250,000 fine. His sentencing is scheduled for Sept. 8

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-truck-bodies,0,2787511.story

What a horrific crime.

Blame for this incident has to be shared with those who turn their backs on illegal immigration and allow it to happen. In a civilized society, potential immigrants would apply for entry and get it under the law after a background check and a check to see if there really was a place for them in the US. As it is, desperately poor people risk their lives to enter illegally, then live in the shadows in constant fear of deportation, if they survive the trip.

 

[Andy]

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/wire/sns-ap-truck-bodies,0,2787511.story

What a horrific crime.

Blame for this incident has to be shared with those who turn their backs on illegal immigration and allow it to happen. In a civilized society, potential immigrants would apply for entry and get it under the law after a background check and a check to see if there really was a place for them in the US. As it is, desperately poor people risk their lives to enter illegally, then live in the shadows in constant fear of deportation, if they survive the trip.

Why are we so worried about what happens to people that break the law? I totally reject the idea that blame can be shared by anyone but the driver and the illegals who choose to put their life at risk to break the law.

Should we share the blame for the robbers or muggers who get shot in the act of committing a crime because we "turned our back on muggers and robbers"?

No, there is a legal way to apply for immigration. They choose not to do it, and they choose to take their life in their hands. The driver and the illegals are the only people who share this blame at all.

 

[Coyote]

There is a difference between robbers and muggers

and illegal immigrants.


Just as there is a difference between rapists and jaywalkers.


Illegal immigrants are human beings trying to get a better life. At least they aren't doing it by holding people up at gun point, raping them or leaving them to die in a desert.

 

[Andy]

There is a difference between robbers and muggers

and illegal immigrants.


Just as there is a difference between rapists and jaywalkers.


Illegal immigrants are human beings trying to get a better life. At least they aren't doing it by holding people up at gun point, raping them or leaving them to die in a desert.

They are both breaking the law. How is anyone obeying the law responsible for those that break it? Question... is it your duty to prevent bad things from happening to me, if I break the law? If so, then I would say your doing a poor job given the local newspaper. This doesn't stand up to logic from any perspective.

Personal responsibility. The idea that where you are, and what situation you are in, is largely due to the choices you make. This holds true for everyone. You make bad choices, to put yourself in a bad situation, and something bad happens, there is no one to blame but yourself.

 

[Coyote]

Compassion: The idea that there but for fortune go you or I.

 

[Andy]

Compassion: The idea that there but for fortune go you or I.

Oh well in that case, lets have compassion on everyone and just eliminate the penal system. For that matter, let's just have completely open boarders. After all, we wouldn't want to not have compassion for immigrant muslim fundamentalists seeking a better afterlife by slaying the infidels. Far be it from me to prevent some poor Palestine devoted follower from attaining his rich heavenly reward.

Coyote, I'm not trying to patronize you. I truly am not. However, we have to have some laws here, or we have to just accept terrorist actions that kill thousand as just the way things have to be.

We have to either A: have laws and enforce them, or B: have anarchy and accept the consequences of that.

We have to either A: have a closed boarder that allows in who we want in, or B: have an open boarder that allows in everyone including those that will do harm.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't have it both ways. You have to make a choice. If you want terrorism and criminals allowed in, if you want chaos like in CA, then that is what you choose. If you want some security and only those getting in that we want in, then some will get turned away, and that's how it goes. Make a choice.

Life isn't about 'feelings' and how we 'feel about' something that happens. I hate the fact this happened, but at the same time I have logical realization that life isn't perfect, and we have laws for a reason, and those laws have to be enforced, and that when people break those laws, what happens to them is not on my head. Now if you want to quit 'feeling' about this issue, and would actually like to do something, start a fund to help Mexicans to legally become U.S. citizens. We do have legal procedures for coming to the U.S. from Mexico.

 

[PLC1]

Yes, Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by coming to the United States without papers.

I see people breaking the law every time I get on the freeway. The posted speed limit is 65, but virtually every car on the road, usually including mine, is going faster than that.

If we're ready to allow illegal aliens to be locked into a trailer and suffocated, and say that it's their fault because they made a bad choice and broke the law, then I suppose we must be willing to accept the same for anyone who breaks the law.

Illegal immigration is not the fault of the illegal immigrant.

Now, before you start your lecture on personal responsibility, let's examine that statement:

Put yourself in the shoes of the illegal. You were born in a third world village where there were no opportunities. You have no education. Your earning power is maybe $2 a day, just enough to buy some rice and beans to survive.

You hear about fellow villagers who have gone to El Norte and made more in an hour than you make in a day. They tell about how the authorities turn a blind eye on those who sneak into the country. They tell you how many people actually want to hire illegals. What do you do? Do you say, "No, that is against the law. I won't go"???

Yeah, right.

And you never, ever, go faster than the posted speed limit, since that is against the law, too.

Yeah right.

Sneaking into the country is illegal. Locking people up in a trailer and leaving them to die is reprehensible, whether they are illegal aliens or not.

And no, I'm certainly not advocating for an open border, just before you ask. I'm placing blame for illegal immigration where it belongs: on the federal government that won't enforce the law, on the grinding poverty of Mexico, and on the governemnt of Mexico that doesn't cooperate with our immigration laws.

 

[Libsmasher]

Yes, Illegal immigrants are breaking the law by coming to the United States without papers.

I see people breaking the law every time I get on the freeway. The posted speed limit is 65, but virtually every car on the road, usually including mine, is going faster than that.

Yep, and a few get tickets.

If we're ready to allow illegal aliens to be locked into a trailer and suffocated, and say that it's their fault because they made a bad choice and broke the law, then I suppose we must be willing to accept the same for anyone who breaks the law.

Right. Breaking the law is dangerous. Duh.

Illegal immigration is not the fault of the illegal immigrant.

Oh, radio waves from Zark, the Illegals Wizard, made them do it?

Now, before you start your lecture on personal responsibility, let's examine that statement:

Put yourself in the shoes of the illegal. You were born in a third world village where there were no opportunities. You have no education. Your earning power is maybe $2 a day, just enough to buy some rice and beans to survive.

You hear about fellow villagers who have gone to El Norte and made more in an hour than you make in a day. They tell about how the authorities turn a blind eye on those who sneak into the country. They tell you how many people actually want to hire illegals. What do you do? Do you say, "No, that is against the law. I won't go"???

Yeah, right.

Put yourself in the shoes of the illegal. You were born poor. You ask yourself why this is so, when your country is a petroleum exporter at $110 a barrel. You say to yourself "I could pull a halfassed stunt like invading another country, but that's just dancing around the issue.....hmmmm.....maybe I could get rid of the oligarchs who control my country? WAIT! I got it! Next election, I'll just NOT vote for the PRI! Yeah, that'll do the trick!!"

 

[Coyote]

Oh well in that case, lets have compassion on everyone and just eliminate the penal system. For that matter, let's just have completely open boarders. After all, we wouldn't want to not have compassion for immigrant muslim fundamentalists seeking a better afterlife by slaying the infidels. Far be it from me to prevent some poor Palestine devoted follower from attaining his rich heavenly reward.

Right there is a major strawman fallacy. We are not talking about eliminating the penal system. We are not talking about changing laws. We are not talking about completely open borders. We aren't talking about terrorists. We are talking about a simple basic human situation here.

We are not saying they have any sort of "right" to break laws or that they haven't broken the law in coming here. However there are degrees of crimes and subsequent degrees punishment. Death penalty for illegal immigration is harsh and unnecessary.

We are talking about illegal immigrants from Mexico who are primarily coming over here to attempt to better their lives. We are also talking about a segment of them who are likely drug runners though that segment is not the one that tends to be taken advantage of by "coyotes".

Should "porous" borders be a real concern then we have far more to worry about with miles of unprotected coastland and the Canadian border.

Coyote, I'm not trying to patronize you. I truly am not. However, we have to have some laws here, or we have to just accept terrorist actions that kill thousand as just the way things have to be.

We aren't talking about terrorists.

We have to either A: have laws and enforce them, or B: have anarchy and accept the consequences of that.

We aren't talking about not enforcing any laws.

We have to either A: have a closed boarder that allows in who we want in, or B: have an open boarder that allows in everyone including those that will do harm.

That is a false dichotomy.

These are mutually exclusive. You can't have it both ways. You have to make a choice. If you want terrorism and criminals allowed in, if you want chaos like in CA, then that is what you choose. If you want some security and only those getting in that we want in, then some will get turned away, and that's how it goes. Make a choice.

Actually, you can have it both ways, which is what we have done for centuries. The degree of border security depends on the border, the particular immigrant groups and a host of other things. I find it ironic that people who talk about border security confine it the the border shared with Mexico. Our thousands of miles of unprotected coastline are far more precarious then the border with Mexico.

A completely closed border is fine, if you like a USSR-style republic. I don't.

Life isn't about 'feelings' and how we 'feel about' something that happens. I hate the fact this happened, but at the same time I have logical realization that life isn't perfect, and we have laws for a reason, and those laws have to be enforced, and that when people break those laws, what happens to them is not on my head. Now if you want to quit 'feeling' about this issue, and would actually like to do something, start a fund to help Mexicans to legally become U.S. citizens. We do have legal procedures for coming to the U.S. from Mexico.

Unfortunately - you are no more "logical" and just as "emotional" as I am in your argument - drawing in would be terrorist threats (that have yet to materialize) and worst case scenarios.

Breaking laws.

There is a difference between:
crossing a border illegally
assaulting and raping a child
murdering a person
shop lifting
fraud
perjory
jaywalking
graffitti on an overpass

is there not?

 

[PLC1]

Put yourself in the shoes of the illegal. You were born poor. You ask yourself why this is so, when your country is a petroleum exporter at $110 a barrel. You say to yourself "I could pull a halfassed stunt like invading another country, but that's just dancing around the issue.....hmmmm.....maybe I could get rid of the oligarchs who control my country? WAIT! I got it! Next election, I'll just NOT vote for the PRI! Yeah, that'll do the trick!!"

Coming to the US where you can make $6 an hour instead of $2 a day is not "invading another country." It is breaking the laws of another country, and the penalty should be deportation. There is, of course, no penalty as the corporate oligarchs who use the cheap labor of the illegals pay lobbyists to make certain that the immigration laws are not enforced. The word that the laws are not being enforced is much like the radar detectors that many drivers have telling them that it's OK to go 90 miles an hour. The law is being ignored, so it has no force, so let's go ahead and ignore it.

Now, if you want to see a real invasion of another country, just let those poor campesinos rise up against those in power in Mexico, and you'll see a real military invasion to help restore peace and put down what would beyond question be viewed by our federal bureaucracy as a leftist insurgency.

 

[SW85]

I see no problem with saying that it's terrible and inhumane to cram people into a trailer and leave them there to die and that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here under any circumstances. I don't see why no one here can make the logical leap that both things are particularly undesirable for different reasons.

Stories like this are not an argument for legalizing illegal immigrants. They're an argument for hunting down and killing the bastards who prey on 'em.

 

[PLC1]

I see no problem with saying that it's terrible and inhumane to cram people into a trailer and leave them there to die and that illegal immigrants shouldn't be here under any circumstances. I don't see why no one here can make the logical leap that both things are particularly undesirable for different reasons.

Stories like this are not an argument for legalizing illegal immigrants. They're an argument for hunting down and killing the bastards who prey on 'em.

Bam! You hit the nail right on the head. It is not in any way an argument for legalization, but for getting rid of those who prey on them. I'm not sure we want to "hunt them down and kill them", but they should certainly be prosecuted under the law.

The best way to stop exploitation of illegals, of course, is to make it possible for Mexicans to come here legally to do field work or whatever, but not to legalize those who have broken the law.

We need to be able to screen potential immigrants and to limit their numbers. It should be the government who controls who is able to come here to work, not the Mexican coyotes. If we had a federal government that worked, the coyotes would be out of business, and it would be known in Mexico that the only way to come to the US is to apply for a visa.

 

[Andy]

And no, I'm certainly not advocating for an open border, just before you ask. I'm placing blame for illegal immigration where it belongs: on the federal government that won't enforce the law, on the grinding poverty of Mexico, and on the governemnt of Mexico that doesn't cooperate with our immigration laws.

Ok then I totally missed that in the original post. I had thought somehow you were suggest we are to blame for this. I would agree then, government not enforcing the laws is to blame.

 

[Andy]

Right there is a major strawman fallacy. We are not talking about eliminating the penal system. We are not talking about changing laws. We are not talking about completely open borders. We aren't talking about terrorists. We are talking about a simple basic human situation here.

We are not saying they have any sort of "right" to break laws or that they haven't broken the law in coming here. However there are degrees of crimes and subsequent degrees punishment. Death penalty for illegal immigration is harsh and unnecessary.

In the prior post you seemed to be suggesting that compassion was a reason to ignore immigrations laws that the people were breaking. If compassion was merely to suggest I feel bad about it, I do, so we're done.

I never suggested the death penalty for anyone. Although the driver who left them locked up should likely be put to death. Someone who is willing to take life, should lose theirs.

My only point was that, as far as trying to place the blame on the people of the US, when one breaks the laws, bad things happen, and it's not our fault.

I snipped the rest of it because you clearly were not making the points I thought you were, so I have no disagreement... as far as I can tell. Again, I mis-read the original post. My bad.

 

[Dr.Who]

Blame for this incident has to be shared with those who turn their backs on illegal immigration and allow it to happen.

In a civilized society, potential immigrants would apply for entry and get it under the law after a background check and a check to see if there really was a place for them in the US.


As it is, desperately poor people risk their lives to enter illegally, then live in the shadows in constant fear of deportation, if they survive the trip.

What makes you think that the present system is not exactly what you have described?