shut down blame?

[Dr.Who]

I have not followed politics as much as I did in the past so I am asking you all to help me understand the shutdown even though it most likely is in the past.

My limited understanding right now is that the pubs refused to fund obamacare but were more than willing to fund every other part of the federal government with no questions asked even if they might not like those other parts. The also compromised and were willing to temporarily fund it if there would have been an extension on the individual mandate, I think. The dems were unwilling to fund any part of government unless obamacare were also funded, they refused to negotiate on anything, and constantly blamed republicans for being obstructionists, blamed pubs for the shutdown (which was really only ever partial), were nasty, and wondered why the pubs would not just roll over and cave.

Don't just tell me I am right because I want to truthfully know what I am not getting.

I am failing to get why this gets blamed on pubs, why standing against something you think will destroy the country is wrong, and generally how what happens gets twisted 180 degrees to be the exact opposite of what it seems to be.

And by the way, did the pubs want a shutdown? Did any of them say so directly or imply it in any way? This hits the heart of the question to me.

I have heard that obama wanted a shutdown so he could create pain and blame it on pubs. Any proof of that?

 

[Texas_tea]

It sounds like you have a pretty good grasp on the situation Dr. Who.

It was the dems who refused to negotiate and through the Obama Regime's MSM were able to generate enough lies and propaganda to convince the Sheeple that the Republicans were in the wrong and doing something that has never been done in history. All a lie of course.

The Republicans would have settle for a delay in the individual mandate. Something that Obama is most likely going to have to do anyway because of the utter disaster of the Obamacare roll out.

And, if you want proof that Obama used the shut down to create pain to blame it on the Republicans just look at what he shut down. National Parks, War Memorials, forced elderly out of their homes who lived on Govt. land, shut down private businesses who were on Govt. land ..... the atrocities go on and on ..... all to make it as difficult and shocking as possible and then used the MSM to blame the Republicans.

 

[dogtowner]

gop saw an opportunity to have same leverage to focus on their main goal of nixing obmacare for all the financial reasons we all know. they also were hoping to initiate other false responsibility ala sequestration but knew it was better to highball and get what they could get. obama was happy ti have the socalled shutdown as he knew there was no threat of defaulting on debt and it was easy hay to make with childish stunts as we all saw.didnt go down quite as planned as obama was willing to accept any harm to the country and gop were forced to be the grown ups. well except for all the pork and carte blanche spending, that was inexcusable and reason enough to make polls show a striking belief that it was good to throw ALL the bums out. wouldnt that be nice ?

 

[Dr.Who]

gop saw an opportunity to have same leverage to focus on their main goal of nixing obmacare for all the financial reasons we all know. they also were hoping to initiate other false responsibility ala sequestration but knew it was better to highball and get what they could get. obama was happy ti have the socalled shutdown as he knew there was no threat of defaulting on debt and it was easy hay to make with childish stunts as we all saw.didnt go down quite as planned as obama was willing to accept any harm to the country and gop were forced to be the grown ups. well except for all the pork and carte blanche spending, that was inexcusable and reason enough to make polls show a striking belief that it was good to throw ALL the bums out. wouldnt that be nice ?

So do you think the gop intended to use the threat of a shutdown to get rid of obamacare or did they merely hope to not fund obamacare? Are there any statements from pubs that shed light on this?

 

[dogtowner]

So do you think the gop intended to use the threat of a shutdown to get rid of obamacare or did they merely hope to not fund obamacare? Are there any statements from pubs that shed light on this?

Defund to force a postponement. Kill totally they knew had no chance. Im sure sound bites are around.

 

[Dr.Who]

Defund to force a postponement. Kill totally they knew had no chance. Im sure sound bites are around.

so you are saying the intended to postpone obamacare but did not intend to shutdown the gov?

 

[dogtowner]

so you are saying the intended to posit as we sawpone obamacare but did not intend to shutdown the gov?

They foolishly believed BO would not allow the shutdown, he had no problem with it as we saw. But I suppose they all knew the shutdown was no shutdown at all and the worst case was they get a number of barrels of pork for their trouble.
throw the bums out. All of them.

 

[Cruella]

so you are saying the intended to postpone obamacare but did not intend to shutdown the gov?

Pretty much. You have realize that it's all a political game, and that Republicans aren't nearly as good at it as the Dems are. We will be back to this all over again come Jan. 15th when the extension runs out. 2014 is an election year, so expect it to get even worse.

 

[Dr.Who]

I read an article this morning that said the republicans owned the shut down because they changed a house rule the night before so that when they were sent a clean bill from the senate that they could not be made to accept it.

Ok I grant that changing rules midstream is not the best way to do things. But we also need to be aware that the definition of a "clean bill" has been turned 180 degrees on its head to make this argument. A broad bill funding everything in government all at once including pork is not a clean bill. A bunch of separate bills each funding some part of government and standing or falling based on their merit would be a bunch of clean bills.

Any reasonable person would have to admit that when pubs are against obamacare that they have as much right to oppose it using any legal ethical means necessary as the dems did when they passed it. Demanding actual clean bills despite years of the status quo being the exact opposite is not the normal way of doing things but it is ethical and legal. Demanding a clean bill also does not require that a shutdown ensue.

Here is the article. It makes its case better than I do but I still think it falls flat:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/10/10/1246004/-How-House-Republicans-guaranteed-a-nbsp-shutdown

 

[dogtowner]

Turnabout us no longer fair play Doc !

 

[Cruella]

Oh my Dr. Who. The DailyKos is an extremely liberal and slanted website. You really need to read up on the reputation of the guy that owns it. All news sources have a political slant, depending upon where they fall. I honestly don't know of any one place you can get "the truth" without a slant.

We have two houses in Congress. The House currently is led by the Republicans and the Senate is led by the Democrats. And yes, they can change the rules if the majority of that body is in favor of it. Just like the Senate changed the rules to pass Obamacare.

The reason we had a shut down, is because the Republicans were trying to get something, as the Democrats and Obama refused to negotiate anything with them. We've had 37 shutdowns and there will be more. When you have two different ideological groups, there is always going to be fights and push back. Always was, always will be.

Politics and the gamesmanship gets very complicated. You can get whip lash just trying to keep up with who is doing what to who and knowing who all the players are. Think of politics as a football game.

 

[Dr.Who]

Oh my Dr. Who. The DailyKos is an extremely liberal and slanted website. You really need to read up on the reputation of the guy that owns it. All news sources have a political slant, depending upon where they fall. I honestly don't know of any one place you can get "the truth" without a slant.

We have two houses in Congress. The House currently is led by the Republicans and the Senate is led by the Democrats. And yes, they can change the rules if the majority of that body is in favor of it. Just like the Senate changed the rules to pass Obamacare.

The reason we had a shut down, is because the Republicans were trying to get something, as the Democrats and Obama refused to negotiate anything with them. We've had 37 shutdowns and there will be more. When you have two different ideological groups, there is always going to be fights and push back. Always was, always will be.

Politics and the gamesmanship gets very complicated. You can get whip lash just trying to keep up with who is doing what to who and knowing who all the players are. Think of politics as a football game.

Could we rephrase that by saying that it takes two to fight?

What message will take root?

 

[Cruella]

Could we rephrase that by saying that it takes two to fight?

What message will take root?

I have felt for a long time that the liberal message is the one being heard. The left has the media. Not just the news channels, but Hollywood and other entertainment vessels.
The left also has education. That's were a lot of it starts. I'll be very surprised if conservatives can survive.