Bot Nation

[Libsmasher]

I voted for Obama, and I'll tell you why. I'm furious that they locked those islamofascists up in Gitmo. What an outrage! Those poor child killers. And you say some of them that have been sprung have already gone back to blowing up women and children in marketplaces? Fine - it was an illegal war. And Bush lied - I can't prove it, but everyone says it so it must be true. I work in michigan on the GM assembly line - you know, turning out those gas hogs. Both I and the company I work for are hopeless anachronisms, but Obama will bail us out - how, I have NO friggin idea, but obama can do everything. How do I know? I get all tingly when I hear him speak. I almost get.... well, nevermind that.

Another thing - I took out a mortgage I had no possibility of paying. I didn't understand any of that crap I signed - but who reads that stuff anyway? The broker told me it would all work out in the end - and he WAS a guy wearing a suit. But when the new rates kicked in - I got behind. But I hear obama will save my house. The government has zillions of dollars right? They can do anything. No-brainer. I'm also one of those people with a $16,000 credit card balance. The interest rate is huge, but what can I say? - I bought things. Everyone does that - right? Maybe obama can help me out there too. Let's face it - all this is the fault of those neocons I've heard about. I don't know how, but they did it.

And health insurance - whoa, don't get me started. The company used to pay for it - now they want ME to pay half of it. This is AMERICA - isn't stuff like that supposed to be free? But obama will take care of that too. Again, I'm not sure how, but they say the government will do it. Fine - as everyone knows, they have an infinite supply of money. Hell, if they run out, just print more - right? Like magic.

One more thing - all those banks shutting down. The ones that are left won't lend any money - I know, I tried. I hear congress is gonna give them more money to lend - great, I need to borrow some.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

another short bus thread

 

[Libsmasher]

another short bus thread

The Koolaid Kid.

 

[9sublime]

Libsmasher, has it ever occured to you that some people may be in Gitmo wrongly? Without trial or a fair hearing? In inhuman conditions? As an American, do you not value the ideals of fair trials before long term imprisonment?

Or does one set of ethics apply to you and one to others? If so, don't complain when people do stuff you don't like.

 

[Libsmasher]

Libsmasher, has it ever occured to you that some people may be in Gitmo wrongly? Without trial or a fair hearing? In inhuman conditions? As an American, do you not value the ideals of fair trials before long term imprisonment?

Or does one set of ethics apply to you and one to others? If so, don't complain when people do stuff you don't like.

Do you realize their are NO SERIOUS ARGUMENTS against gitmo offered here - not a single one, and few elsewhere? If there were ANY libs here capable of debating the issue, even a single ONE, I would be happy to debate the whole issue including such aspects. But this place is loaded with people like dawkins and shaman and piffle and popeye who only regurgitate the stupidest level demogogy on the issue - I could argue THEIR side of the issue about ten times better than THEY can. As I said before, this place suffers from a lack of intelligent libs who will actually debate the issues. If any lib capable of engaging in REAL debate on the issue wants to argue the issue, I'm ready.

 

[oceanenvy]

Do you realize their are NO SERIOUS ARGUMENTS against gitmo offered here - not a single one, and few elsewhere? If there were ANY libs here capable of debating the issue, even a single ONE, I would be happy to debate the whole issue including such aspects. But this place is loaded with people like dawkins and shaman and piffle and popeye who only regurgitate the stupidest level demogogy on the issue - I could argue THEIR side of the issue about ten times better than THEY can. As I said before, this place suffers from a lack of intelligent libs who will actually debate the issues. If any lib capable of engaging in REAL debate on the issue wants to argue the issue, I'm ready.

I think 9Sublime asked you some very thoughtful, specific questions. Why not start there? Since when do our values re: imprisonment without trial go out the window?

 

[BigRob]

I think 9Sublime asked you some very thoughtful, specific questions. Why not start there? Since when do our values re: imprisonment without trial go out the window?

Perhaps not legally speaking, but basically these people are POW's. Do we grant POW's the ability to "challenge" their detentions and get a "fair trial" to their imprisonment?

 

[oceanenvy]

Perhaps not legally speaking, but basically these people are POW's. Do we grant POW's the ability to "challenge" their detentions and get a "fair trial" to their imprisonment?

An interesting point, and I think that's been the position, and why the concept of Gitmo exists. But I think we have taken liberty with the term POW. I think we need to have a more specific definition of what a POW is, and also need to understand the timelines around what constitutes a POW. I don't think POWs were ever meant to be permanent though, and it becomes increasingly complex as our whole vision of war and enemies is quite different than it once was.

If indeed, we have a never-ending War on Terror, should we keep POWs indefinitely without trial? I don't think that is in keeping with our American values.

 

[9sublime]

POW's can still be entitled to reasonable humane treatment, like other western countries give. Gitmo is more at the end of the spectrum less civilised nations.