Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?

Gnostic Christian Bishop

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Who was correct, Jews or Christians? Was Eden our elevation or our fall?
The Jewish view. http://www.mrrena.com/misc/judaism2.php
“Instead of the Fall of man (in the sense of humanity as a whole), Judaism preaches the Rise of man: and instead of Original Sin, it stresses Original Virtue”
In a nutshell, the Jews saw man acquiring a moral sense equal to God’s, --- as man being elevated.
Gen 3; 22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil:
The Christian view sees the same story and preaches our fall and all of us inheriting our forefather’s sin. http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/dictionaries/dict_meaning.php?source=1&wid=T0001304
“They prove the loss not only of innocence but of original righteousness, and, with it, of the favour and fellowship of God.”
The Bible seems to favor the Jewish view.
Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) “Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.
Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]
Whose view is more intelligent and moral and why?
Regards
DL
 
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Tricky one

Both are ludicrous affectations invented to control people and make the inventors rich

I guess the sales people for Christianity were better than for Judaism

And Christians o love a bit of killing and burning don't they?
 
Tricky one

Both are ludicrous affectations invented to control people and make the inventors rich

I guess the sales people for Christianity were better than for Judaism

And Christians o love a bit of killing and burning don't they?

That is not what they say but they do not walk their talk so I cannot disagree.

Regards
DL
 
Christians love killing

The crusaders went to the middle eat to kill people for thinking wrong thoughts

The Catholic Church burned and tortured people for the same crime

The Protestant church did the same thing

The British protestants waged war against the Irish for being catholics

The US kills muslims in their thousands
 
The Jewish and Christian explanation of why the world is full of tragedy is that, long ago, the original humans sinned. They rebelled against God. They lost their free communion with Him in what theologians call The Fall of Man. Because of the Fall, evil and death are running loose on our planet. You may dismiss this as a myth, but it's a perfectly coherent and adequate explanation – and one of the core doctrines of Christianity.
 
The Jewish and Christian explanation of why the world is full of tragedy is that, long ago, the original humans sinned. They rebelled against God. They lost their free communion with Him in what theologians call The Fall of Man. Because of the Fall, evil and death are running loose on our planet. You may dismiss this as a myth, but it's a perfectly coherent and adequate explanation – and one of the core doctrines of Christianity.

It is for sure and shows a completely unjust God, yet they still adore such a prick.

Such a God deserves the hell he will be cast into.

That would be like my beating up on your child because I am angry with you.

Regards
DL
 
Christians love killing

The crusaders went to the middle eat to kill people for thinking wrong thoughts

The Catholic Church burned and tortured people for the same crime

The Protestant church did the same thing

The British protestants waged war against the Irish for being catholics

The US kills muslims in their thousands

Religions are responsible for about 3/4 of the wars to date if you believe the experts. Clash of Civilizations is a good read.

Be they religionists or just citizens, it is impossible to separate church and state in my view.

Regards
DL
 
Church should have nothing to do with the state

It should keep its mad beak out

If people want to believe in the medieval mythology of religion that is up to them but its interference in politics has caused untold pain and suffering and intolerance and injustice

And as god is a totalitarian dictating fascist despot he's hardly a good role model is he

I mean, look at the tea party
 
Religions are responsible for about 3/4 of the wars to date if you believe the experts. Clash of Civilizations is a good read.

Be they religionists or just citizens, it is impossible to separate church and state in my view.

Regards
DL
I absolutely agree with atheists and others who say that many atrocious things have been done in the name of God, and even in the name of Christianity. However, these atrocities were not perpetrated by God, but by evil human beings. If we look at the history of democide (which includes genocide, politicide, and mass murder, but not war-dead) prior to the 20th century, we find that millions of people were killed by people groups who wanted the other people groups eliminated. Note that these numbers do not include those killed through wars.
TABLE 3.1
Selected Pre-20th Century Democide and Totals1
________________________________________
Cases Years2 Democide3 Religious?
________________________________________
China 221 B.C.-19 C. 33,519,0004 No
Mongols 14 C-15 C 29,927,000 No
Slavery of Africans 1451-1870 17,267,000 No
Amer-Indians 16 C-19 C 13,778,000 No
Thirty Years War 1618-1648 5,750,000 No
In India 13 C-1 9 C 4,511,0005 No
In Iran 5 C-19 C 2,000,0004,5 No
Ottoman Empire 12 C-19 C 2,000,0005 No
In Japan 1570-19 C 1,500,0005 No
In Russia 10 C-19 C 1,007,0005 No
Christian Crusades 1095-1272 1,000,000 Yes
Aztecs Centuries 1,000,0006 Yes
Spanish Inquisition 16 C-18 C 350,000 Yes
French Revolution 1793-1794 263,000 No
Albigensian Crusade 1208-1249 200,000 Yes
Witch Hunts 15 C-17 C 100,000 Yes
________________________________________
Total For All Cases pre-20 C 133,147,000 2,650,000
Hypothetical Total 30 C B.C.-19 C A.D. 625,716,0007
________________________________________
International war-related dead 30 C B.C.-19 C A.D. 40,457,0008
Plague dead (Black Death) 541 A.D.-1912 102,070,0009
________________________________________
1. Adopted from STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE.
2. Unless otherwise noted, years and centuries are A.D.
3. Unless otherwise noted, these are a best guess estimate in a low to high range.
4. Excludes democide in China by Mongols.
5. An absolute low.
6. A very speculative absolute low.
7. From STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE.. Calculated from the 20th century democide rate and the population for each century since 30 B.C.
8. From table STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE. Total undoubtedly inflated by democide.
9. A minimum: includes plague dead in circa 541-542 A.D.; 1346-1771 in Europe; 1771 in Moscow; 1894 in Hong Kong; and 1898-1912 in India. From Duplaix (1988, p. 677-678).
What percentage of these killings were due to religious democide? It is less than 3% of the totals. The surprising thing is that these killings occurred during a period of time when virtually all the peoples of the world were involved in some sort of religion. Here is the data for the 20th century:
TABLE 1.2
20th Century Democide1
________________________________________
REGIMES YEARS DEMOCIDE2 Atheist?
________________________________________
U.S.S.R. 1917-87 61,911,000 Yes
China (PRC) 1949-87 35,236,000 Yes
Germany 1933-45 20,946,000 No
China (KMT) 1928-49 10,075,000 No
Japan 1936-45 5,964,000 No
China (Mao Soviets)3 1923-49 3,466,000 Yes
Cambodia 1975-79 2,035,000 Yes
Turkey (Armenian Genocide) 1909-18 1,883,000 No
Vietnam 1945-87 1,670,000 Yes
Poland 1945-48 1,585,000 Yes
Pakistan 1958-87 1,503,000 No
Yugoslavia (Tito) 1944-87 1,072,000 Yes
North Korea 1948-87 1,663,000 Yes
Mexico 1900-20 1,417,000 No
Russia 1900-17 1,066,000 Yes
China (Warlords) 1917-49 910,000 No
Turkey (Ataturk) 1919-23 878,000 No
United Kingdom 1900-87 816,000 No
Portugal (Dictatorship) 1926-82 741,000 No
Indonesia 1965-87 729,000 No
LESSER MURDERERS 1900-87 2,792,000 ?
WORLD TOTAL 1900-87 169,202,000 107,047,000
________________________________________
1. From STATISTICS OF DEMOCIDE.
2. Includes genocide, politicide, and mass murder; excludes war-dead. These are probable mid-estimates in low to high ranges. Figures may not sum due to round off.
3. Guerrilla period.
Vox Day, in The Irrational Atheist , lists 22 atheistic regimes that committed 153,368,610 murders in the 20th century alone:
Murders by Atheists (20th Century)
Country Dates Murders
Afghanistan 1978-1992 1,750,000
Albania 1944-1985 100,000
Angola 1975-2002 125,000
Bulgaria 1944-1989 222,000
China/PRC 1923-2007 76,702,000
Cuba 1959-1992 73,000
Czechoslovakia 1948-1968 65,000
Ethiopia 1974-1991 1,343,610
France 1793-1794 40,000
Greece 1946-1949 20,000
Hungary 1948-1989 27,000
Kampuchea/Cambodia 1973-1991 2,627,000
Laos 1975-2007 93,000
Mongolia 1926-2007 100,000
Mozambique 1975-1990 118,000
North Korea 1948-2007 3,163,000
Poland 1945-1948 1,607,000
Romania 1948-1987 438,000
Spain (Republic) 1936-1939 102,000
U.S.S.R. 1917-1987 61,911,000
Vietnam 1945-2007 1,670,000
Yugoslavia 1944-1980 1,072,000


Figure 1. Percentage of democide based upon type of government control.
What percentage of this democide was due to religious conflict? It turns out that religious democide doesn't even make the top 20 (although I am sure there is some in the "lesser murderers" category. Still, the total religious killings is less than 2%. In fact, the top two killers were specifically atheistic states (which had never existed before in human history). Should atheism be blamed for more than 50% of the atrocities committed during the 20th century? The answer of course is No! If one examines the nature of the regimes that committed these atrocities (even the religious ones), the key factor is absolute power (see Figure 1, right). According to Professor R.J. Rummel, in the 1816-2005 period there were 205 wars between non-democracies, 166 wars between non-democracies and democracies, and 0 wars between democracies. Lord Acton's warning that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" seems to be more than just a trite saying.
Yes, "Christians" have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, atheists have committed far more atrocities than all religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders. The Bible says that people are evil.., but that they can become transformed through the power of the Holy Spirit to live lives of love, joy and peace.
 
One last thing... One should note that Jesus said that "many" people who think they are His followers will be rejected by Jesus when at the judgment when they attempt to claim that they are His disciples. Not all who claim the name of Jesus are actually His disciples. My guess is that in even the best of Christian churches only about half of the people have been truly born again (see John chapter 3). Christianity should be judged on the basis of what Jesus said and did, not on the basis of the actions of people who merely claim to be Christians. Foxe's Book of Martyrs details the deaths of Christians who were killed because of their faith in Christ, in many cases by people claiming to be Christians.
 
According to Professor R.J. Rummel, in the 1816-2005 period there were 205 wars between non-democracies, 166 wars between non-democracies and democracies, and 0 wars between democracies. Lord Acton's warning that "power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" seems to be more than just a trite saying.
Yes, "Christians" have committed atrocities against other religious and non-religious people. However, atheists have committed far more atrocities than all religious groups combined. Even so, the key factor in these atrocities has been totalitarian power, rather than religion, which has resulted in these hundreds of millions of murders. The Bible says that people are evil.., but that they can become transformed through the power of the Holy Spirit to live lives of love, joy and peace.

That says a great deal.

Government whether lead by a dictator, monarch, or democrat is DANGEROUS. And yet, many Americans think government is good. How can this be when history clearly SHOUTS at us that big uncontrolled government is deadly?

We humans are evil. But there are those who think humans are good. God is the answer, but He is being pushed away.
 
That says a great deal.

Government whether lead by a dictator, monarch, or democrat is DANGEROUS. And yet, many Americans think government is good. How can this be when history clearly SHOUTS at us that big uncontrolled government is deadly?

We humans are evil. But there are those who think humans are good. God is the answer, but He is being pushed away.
Gip, ya know, sometimes my heart breaks for this wonderful country of ours.. people just need to open their eyes... and see where we are heading..
 
Gip, ya know, sometimes my heart breaks for this wonderful country of ours.. people just need to open their eyes... and see where we are heading..

Sadly we have bequeathed our children a nation not based on individual liberty, free market capitalism, and God's law. We have given them a terrible Godless tyranny.
 
Yes, let's get back to the good old days when we had slavery

And a white man could ass whoop a nigger without fear of retribution
 
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Oh and by the way, god made all the people who started the wars and he knew they would do it

It is all his fault
 
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