What a filthy work !

[pocketfullofshells]

Demagoguery. The Israeli people have been subject to rocket attacks for how long now? They are doing what they think that they must do to counter the attacks. If there were no rockets landing on Israel, you would find a more sympathetic audience. If the Palestinians did not vote the Hezbollah into power and celebrate in the streets when they won the election, you would have a more sympathetic audience.
In the mean time, peddle your foolish propaganda elsewhere.

If Israel got out of Palestine, stayed in its Legal borders...maybe they would not get attacked with rockets...thats what happens to people when you take there land...people fight back...deal with it

 

[numinus]

So you hate the U.S. and love Israel - is that right Numinus? You might not want to speak so contemptuously of the country that has saved Israel again and again.

Of course not. A lot of my relatives, including my sister and mother, are now us citizens. What I feel regarding the us is irrelevant to the fact I mentioned.

Cheap propaganda.

quote: “The majority of these [Palestinian] children were killed and injured while going about normal daily activities, such as going to school, playing, shopping, or simply being in their homes. Sixty-four percent of children killed during the first six months of 2003 died as a result of Israeli air and ground attacks, or from indiscriminate fire from Israeli soldiers.”

link: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/children.html

Nonsense.

Are you even capable of forming an opinion based on facts and logic?

Do you know how expensive smart bombs are? If your purpose were to kill women and children, would you use smart bombs? I know I wouldn't. I'd use something infinitely cheaper -- along the lines of pesticide, perhaps.

Which begs the question -- who exactly around here is spreading cheap propaganda and who is stating MATTERS OF ACTUAL FACT, hmmmm?

Palestinians were massacred and driven from their homes by the Israelis. To assert that their right to live in their ancestral homeland is illegitimate is to embrace ethnic cleansing.

More nonsense.

Have you even read the declaration of independence of israel on May 14 1948?

The palestinian arabs refused the two state plan proposed by the un under resolution 181. The palestinian arabs refused citizenship in the state of israel. They left their homes to give way for the combined armies of egypt, syria, iraq and lebanon to annihilate the jews.

Their muslim armies LOST. Boo-fcking-hoo.

Your arrogance seems to be built on the fact that Israel is a strong military power. Please don't forget that Israel's strength is entirely the gift of the American taxpayer.

Nonsense.

The state of israel defended their land against the combined arab armies on their own. Granted that they were supplied with weapons and ammunition by the us (what army isn't being supplied by any of the major super powers in the first place), THEY FOUGHT FOR THEIR LAND THEMSELVES.

THE ARABS LOST THAT WAR, AND ALL OTHER ATTEMPTS AFTER THAT. Give it a rest and start thinking of how to build a separate palestinian state beside israel. And no more nonsense about annihilating the state of israel since -- guess what???--THEY CAN'T -- NOW AND IN THE FORSEEABLE FUTURE.

Duh?

 

[numinus]

If Israel got out of Palestine, stayed in its Legal borders...maybe they would not get attacked with rockets...thats what happens to people when you take there land...people fight back...deal with it

Nonsense. The occupied territories are their legal borders. The jews certainly didn't kick the collective asses of the armies of egypt, lebanon, syria and iraq only to revert to the partition plan of un res. 181 -- the same partition plan the arabs REFUSED in the first place.

No way. They need those occupied territories as a buffer in case some goat-herder is still harboring delusions of grandeur of a greater palestinian ARAB state. Otherwise, their fall back position would be--guess what--the red sea.

And now that they have obtained rockets, the more reason to maintain some distance between israeli cities and the goat herders.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Nonsense. The occupied territories are their legal borders. The jews certainly didn't kick the collective asses of the armies of egypt, lebanon, syria and iraq only to revert to the partition plan of un res. 181 -- the same partition plan the arabs REFUSED in the first place.

No way. They need those occupied territories as a buffer in case some goat-herder is still harboring delusions of grandeur of a greater palestinian ARAB state. Otherwise, their fall back position would be--guess what--the red sea.

And now that they have obtained rockets, the more reason to maintain some distance between israeli cities and the goat herders.

the UN and rest of the word does not agree with you...

 

[Fisher of Men]

If your purpose were to kill women and children, would you use smart bombs? I know I wouldn't. I'd use something infinitely cheaper -- along the lines of pesticide, perhaps.

Numinus, Israel employs many weapons against the helpless civilians of Gaza, not just smart bombs. I notice your attempt to dehumanize Palestinians (pesticides are used against rodents and cockroaches) - similar methods used in Nazi propaganda.

The palestinian arabs refused citizenship in the state of israel. They left their homes to give way for the combined armies of egypt, syria, iraq and lebanon to annihilate the jews.

Wow nobody takes this lie seriously anymore, where have you been?

Here's an excerpt from a interview with Israeli historian Benny Morris: According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

"About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg."

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

link: http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

Granted that they were supplied with weapons and ammunition by the us

You got that right - we've sent mountains of weaponry. Israeli never would have survived without our help. How do they repay us: spying on the U.S. and selling weapons to our adversaries (like China)!

They need those occupied territories

So you favor a one-state solution? West of the Jordan river the Palestinians have a majority. In the first democratic election therefore Palestinians will win and work to dismantle the Israeli apartheid state. Sounds good to me.

 

[numinus]

the UN and rest of the word does not agree with you...

Your opinion is irrelevant to facts and logic.

 

[numinus]

Numinus, Israel employs many weapons against the helpless civilians of Gaza, not just smart bombs. I notice your attempt to dehumanize Palestinians (pesticides are used against rodents and cockroaches) - similar methods used in Nazi propaganda.

Sell silly someplace else.

The only reason there is collateral damage in this affair is because the goat herders of hamas et al CHOOSES to fight behind civilians. As a matter of principle, the state of israel has an inalienable right to defend itself either from external threats or internal lawless violence, as do any independent state within the community of nations.

When lawless violence emanates from within the territorial boundary of a state, it has the entirely legal and valid option of declaring martial law.

Wow nobody takes this lie seriously anymore, where have you been?

The declaration of independence of the state of israel:

...in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months — to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East....

Where have you been?

Here's an excerpt from a interview with Israeli historian Benny Morris: According to your new findings, how many cases of Israeli rape were there in 1948?

"About a dozen. In Acre four soldiers raped a girl and murdered her and her father. In Jaffa, soldiers of the Kiryati Brigade raped one girl and tried to rape several more. At Hunin, which is in the Galilee, two girls were raped and then murdered. There were one or two cases of rape at Tantura, south of Haifa. There was one case of rape at Qula, in the center of the country. At the village of Abu Shusha, near Kibbutz Gezer [in the Ramle area] there were four female prisoners, one of whom was raped a number of times. And there were other cases. Usually more than one soldier was involved. Usually there were one or two Palestinian girls. In a large proportion of the cases the event ended with murder. Because neither the victims nor the rapists liked to report these events, we have to assume that the dozen cases of rape that were reported, which I found, are not the whole story. They are just the tip of the iceberg."

According to your findings, how many acts of Israeli massacre were perpetrated in 1948?

"Twenty-four. In some cases four or five people were executed, in others the numbers were 70, 80, 100. There was also a great deal of arbitrary killing. Two old men are spotted walking in a field - they are shot. A woman is found in an abandoned village - she is shot. There are cases such as the village of Dawayima [in the Hebron region], in which a column entered the village with all guns blazing and killed anything that moved.

"The worst cases were Saliha (70-80 killed), Deir Yassin (100-110), Lod (250), Dawayima (hundreds) and perhaps Abu Shusha (70). There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there. At Jaffa there was a massacre about which nothing had been known until now. The same at Arab al Muwassi, in the north. About half of the acts of massacre were part of Operation Hiram [in the north, in October 1948]: at Safsaf, Saliha, Jish, Eilaboun, Arab al Muwasi, Deir al Asad, Majdal Krum, Sasa. In Operation Hiram there was a unusually high concentration of executions of people against a wall or next to a well in an orderly fashion.

"That can't be chance. It's a pattern. Apparently, various officers who took part in the operation understood that the expulsion order they received permitted them to do these deeds in order to encourage the population to take to the roads. The fact is that no one was punished for these acts of murder. Ben-Gurion silenced the matter. He covered up for the officers who did the massacres."

What you are telling me here, as though by the way, is that in Operation Hiram there was a comprehensive and explicit expulsion order. Is that right?

"Yes. One of the revelations in the book is that on October 31, 1948, the commander of the Northern Front, Moshe Carmel, issued an order in writing to his units to expedite the removal of the Arab population. Carmel took this action immediately after a visit by Ben-Gurion to the Northern Command in Nazareth. There is no doubt in my mind that this order originated with Ben-Gurion. Just as the expulsion order for the city of Lod, which was signed by Yitzhak Rabin, was issued immediately after Ben-Gurion visited the headquarters of Operation Dani [July 1948]."

link: http://www.counterpunch.org/shavit01162004.html

Nobody is denying the toll of the arab-israeli war on the civilian population of both sides. Nor is anyone questioning the chain of events that led to the war.

It started with un resolution 181 -- the two state solution proposed by the un in anticipation of the british withdrawal from the palestinian mandate. The jews accepted. The arabs refused on the grounds that any compromise that will not give the palestinian mandate in its entirety to arab hands is unacceptable.

Within days of the declaration, the combined arab armies invaded israel and the rest, so to speak, is history.

These are historical FACTS which you wish to revise based solely on that interview.

You got that right - we've sent mountains of weaponry. Israeli never would have survived without our help. How do they repay us: spying on the U.S. and selling weapons to our adversaries (like China)!

Which begs the question -- did the us help for the jews to defend their separate and independent state or to establish a us puppet state in the middle east?

As for china, I wasn't aware that you are at war with china. One would normally see us projection of military and economic influence in asia as openly provocative to china's interests. But then again, is chinese interest really hostile to the us? For an expanding economy, china would most logically have economic ties with its neighbors -- ties which predate even the arrival of the first europeans to asia.

So, what exactly should china do, hmmmm?

So you favor a one-state solution? West of the Jordan river the Palestinians have a majority. In the first democratic election therefore Palestinians will win and work to dismantle the Israeli apartheid state. Sounds good to me.

Nonsense.

I am in favor of a two-state solution. And an important pre-requisite for a palestinian state to join the community of nations is TO FORGO LAWLESS VIOLENCE in obtaining this end.

It is simple really -- hamas, hezbollah and the various goat-herder organizations need to DISARM PRIOR TO JOINING LEGITIMATE POLITICAL PROCESSES. It is an entirely reasonable condition. In fact, I know of no other way to proceed without it.

But they wouldn't, would they?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Your opinion is irrelevant to facts and logic.

umm yea, that was a great comeback.,if you had facts ...

FAIL

 

[numinus]

umm yea, that was a great comeback.,if you had facts ...

FAIL

You want facts?

How about the fact that hamas is participating in the democratic process of nation building (they have been elected to majority in the palestinian authority's legislature) at the same time refusing to disarm?

How about the fact that the same goat-herders are using this mantle of legitimacy in addressing the un while at the same time, provoking israel to a confrontation with their provocative rhetorics and outright lawlessness?

How about the fact that these goat-herders accuse israel of inhumane military responses to their acts -- acts which are, themselves, not only against international law and the geneva convention on the rules of war, but also against the universal declaration of human rights itself?

And when confronted with this facts, the only excuse they can offer is that these armed groups are outside their control. How the hell can anyone allow a separate and independent state to exist when it has neither control nor responsibility for the actions of their armed forces?????

You need to face FACTS.

If the palestinians want a country of their own, either they need to get rid of their guns and sit at the negotiation table or go to war -- THEY CAN'T DO BOTH AT THE SAME TIME. Its time people saw goat-herder logic for what it is.

 

[Fisher of Men]

the goat herders of hamas et al CHOOSES to fight behind civilians. As a matter of principle, the state of israel has an inalienable right to defend itself either from external threats or internal lawless violence

So Numinus Israel has the right to defend itself but Palestinians don't - sounds fair and reasonable. You hate Palestinians so much you want to blame them for their civilian deaths rather than the people actually dropping the bombs!

We extend our hand to all neighbouring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighbourliness

What a sick joke! The Israelis massacred the Palestinians - but in a very peaceful and neighbourly way.

At the end of WW2 the Palestinians were a clear majority in what is now Israel. The Israeli terrorists attacked the Palestinians.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
The Israelis attacked the Palestinians and ethnically cleansed them from their homeland. The Israelis received some of their weapons from Stalin, who was initially sympathetic.

the various goat-herder organizations need to DISARM PRIOR

Yea the Palestinians should disarm while the vast Israeli military machine continues to grow. Does this seem fair to anyone? Only someone with a deep hatred of Palestinians could accept this. Please keep posting Numinus you provide a great example of Israeli bigotry.

 

[Fisher of Men]

More Israeli inhumanity.

headline: Fresh evidence of Israeli phosphorus use in Gaza emerges

link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/17/israel-gaza-phosphorus-civilians

Disgusting!

 

[Fisher of Men]

Why are American tax dollars going to pay for this:

 

[pocketfullofshells]

So Numinus Israel has the right to defend itself but Palestinians don't - sounds fair and reasonable. You hate Palestinians so much you want to blame them for their civilian deaths rather than the people actually dropping the bombs!

What a sick joke! The Israelis massacred the Palestinians - but in a very peaceful and neighbourly way.

At the end of WW2 the Palestinians were a clear majority in what is now Israel. The Israeli terrorists attacked the Palestinians.
link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
The Israelis attacked the Palestinians and ethnically cleansed them from their homeland. The Israelis received some of their weapons from Stalin, who was initially sympathetic.

Yea the Palestinians should disarm while the vast Israeli military machine continues to grow. Does this seem fair to anyone? Only someone with a deep hatred of Palestinians could accept this. Please keep posting Numinus you provide a great example of Israeli bigotry.

Muslims are not people, its ok to kill them and take there land...just think how the right would be if Palistinans where Christian.....

 

[Fisher of Men]

Why do patriotic Americans support Zionists?

Should the American taxpayer be compelled to send billions in welfare payments to the state of Israel? Couldn't this money better be spent here in the U.S., or better yet used to reduce our enormous deficit?

In the 1997 fiscal year, for example, Israel received $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, at least $525 million from other U.S. budgets, and $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the 1997 total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion. That’s $15,068,493 per day, 365 days a year.
link: http://www.alhewar.com/Curtiss.html

1) Israel has not shown gratitude. For example, Israel has spied on us and re-exported weapons to America's adversary China.

quote: Israel has illegally re-exported advanced US defense technology to China. The problem was first recognized in 1992 when the State Department's inspector general reported that there was "overwhelming" evidence of a "systematic and growing pattern" of transfers. Israel has been the primary supplier of advanced defense technology to China since 1989.
link: http://www.nti.org/db/missile/1998/m9808627.htm

2) Israel does not occupy the moral high ground.

quote: We condemn Israel's assault on Gaza. As of today , more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli assault, including at least 335 children and many more civilians. Nearly 5,000 have been wounded, many paralyzed for life. Tens of thousands have fled their homes - but Gaza is entirely sealed off, so there is nowhere to hide, no safe haven for civilians
link: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/p...cle_1159.shtml

3) The American people derive no benefit from their "investment". Unless you consider the lasting enmity of millions living the Middle East (and elsewhere) a benefit.

4) Israel's extremism endangers American troops according to General Petraeus and Admiral Mullen. The Israeli leaders are indifferent.

quote from Petraeus: "The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel, Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the [region] and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world.

Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support."

 

[Pandora]

Why do patriotic Americans support Zionists?

Should the American taxpayer be compelled to send billions in welfare payments to the state of Israel? Couldn't this money better be spent here in the U.S., or better yet used to reduce our enormous deficit?

In the 1997 fiscal year, for example, Israel received $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, at least $525 million from other U.S. budgets, and $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the 1997 total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel was $5.5 billion. That’s $15,068,493 per day, 365 days a year.
link: http://www.alhewar.com/Curtiss.html

1) Israel has not shown gratitude. For example, Israel has spied on us and re-exported weapons to America's adversary China.

quote: Israel has illegally re-exported advanced US defense technology to China. The problem was first recognized in 1992 when the State Department's inspector general reported that there was "overwhelming" evidence of a "systematic and growing pattern" of transfers. Israel has been the primary supplier of advanced defense technology to China since 1989.
link: http://www.nti.org/db/missile/1998/m9808627.htm

2) Israel does not occupy the moral high ground.

quote: We condemn Israel's assault on Gaza. As of today , more than 1,000 Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli assault, including at least 335 children and many more civilians. Nearly 5,000 have been wounded, many paralyzed for life. Tens of thousands have fled their homes - but Gaza is entirely sealed off, so there is nowhere to hide, no safe haven for civilians
link: http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/p...cle_1159.shtml

3) The American people derive no benefit from their "investment". Unless you consider the lasting enmity of millions living the Middle East (and elsewhere) a benefit.

4) Israel's extremism endangers American troops according to General Petraeus and Admiral Mullen. The Israeli leaders are indifferent.

quote from Petraeus: "The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel, Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the [region] and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world.

Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support."

Do you also have issue with the support America gives to Egypt and other middle eastern countries? Or is it just Israel you are un happy with? Or how about Palestine?

Alain Remy, the French consul general in Jerusalem, said the Palestinians have received $3 billion in foreign aid in 2008. This was stated in an AP article dated 12/23/2008.

Remy said $1.8 billion went to the Palestinian Authority, $700 million to specific projects, and $500 million to humanitarian aid.

It seems like the money could be spent better if used on our new socialist health care instead.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_much_foreign_aid_does_palestine_get