Vince Foster was murdered by the Clintons - the evidence you never saw

[Coyote]

Then why are you still here defending it, if it is so easily seen through? Why is your buddy coyote here on a non-stop rampage to defend it?

Non-stop rampage? That's hyperbole for you. Typical response when anyone questions your theories.

I can see the headlines now: Clintonistas fight to suppress the Truth

 

[Coyote]

The point is, on the photo we can see, there's no blood where there should be lots of blood. As far as what we can't see, I'm not going to take ABC's word for it. That's just another hearsay assertion.
And as far as their claim that "that wraps it up folks" - WRONG. The fact that 3 experts - whose reports are publically available and can be questioned by any handwriting expert in the world - AND HAVE NOT BEEN ATTACKED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AS BEING INACCURATE - concluded that the suicide note was forged simply does not support a suicide. If the suicide is authentic, there's no need to fake anything - the evidence will stand on its own.

Basically, what your saying is - no matter what they say, they're wrong. Three independent investigations, hostile to Clinton - and somehow you are more competent then they are after viewing only a fraction of the evidence and ignoring all claims to the contrary.

Now go on, tell me about all the fallacies I've just committed in the paragraph above....

 

[Coyote]

What's the point? Both parties are awash in campaign finance irregularities. It doesn't further your case for Vince Foster being murdered.

Admit it now, you just are one of those people who can't resist conspiracy theories. As I understand, it's classified as an actual addiction. No harm done, one day you might actually be right, just not today.

Exactly. Look at the current investigation.

The thing is - was this measly batch of convictions worth a $40 million dollar price tag?

 

[Coyote]

You guys ever going to address these questions?

Why?

1. I don't have access to all the information. Neither do you.

2. I've already shown that numerous claims were false or hearsay.

3. How can I tell if this claim is accurate either?


...and frequently, when people are assaulted and beaten, it's by people they've never seen before. Two things occuring together doesn't prove a cause and effect relationship.

 

[palerider]

3. How can I tell if this claim is accurate either?

And how can you tell it isn't? You brough up some questions that were addressed in the investigation, but left mine unanswered. Exactly as the investigators did and mine are valid and bedrock basic to an investigation that is actually seeking the truth.

Vince Foster had no power to suspend either physics or human physiology while he comitted suicide. A gunshot wound to the mouth DOES NOT produce a "trickle" of blood and it DOES NOT leave the gun or the hand that held the gun unblemished by the inevetable blowback.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

What's the point? Both parties are awash in campaign finance irregularities.

All those convictions didn't deal with campaign finance irregularities. Again, here you guys go with the fallacy of "But look what the Republicans are doing!" Doesn't matter. If some Bush associates had a high level government official murdered, or anyone murdered for that fact, would it excuse a murder by a Democrat?????????? No, of course not. Any Republican who murders someone should be exposed and convicted. The same goes for any Democrat.

It doesn't further your case for Vince Foster being murdered.

Well everything I'm posting isn't in direct support of that. I'm discussing different aspects as I see fit. What it does support is the fact that Bill Clinton has a serious ethical problem and can't be trusted when denying something. It does question his character as to the people he associates himself with. He appoints a long time friend, Web Hubbell, to the number two position in the justice department. Web later goes to jail for multiple felonies. And you're telling me Clinton knew nothing about it???? Yeah, right. Dry that one out and you can fertilize the lawn with it. In order for you to believe that, you have to believe "Clinton would never deal with anyone who had knowingly committed a crime" - which we know is false BECAUSE CLINTON HIMSELF ENGAGED IN CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR.

And don't forget what Web Hubbell stated when asked about Vince Foster:

"Don't believe a word you hear. It was not suicide. It couldn't have been." -Assistant Attorney General Webster Hubbell, 7/20/93, cited in Esquire, 11/93.

Admit it now, you just are one of those people who can't resist conspiracy theories.

What I am is just one of those people who recognizes when the facts don't fit the "official" conclusion.

There are some conspiracy theories like that - and others that don't wash. I still haven't seen sufficient evidence to suggest the government planned 9/11. I've seen a lot of interesting information on the subject, but that's one of many conspiracy theories that I can't subscribe to without further proof.

If I was "addicted to conspiracy theories" as you claim, I'd obviously believe them all. And that's not the case.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

And as far as their claim that "that wraps it up folks" - WRONG. The fact that 3 experts - whose reports are publically available and can be questioned by any handwriting expert in the world - AND HAVE NOT BEEN ATTACKED IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM AS BEING INACCURATE - concluded that the suicide note was forged simply does not support a suicide. If the suicide is authentic, there's no need to fake anything - the evidence will stand on its own.

No answer to this - it stands.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

Why?

1. I don't have access to all the information.

Then look it up. What are you afraid of.

Neither do you.

I have spoken directly to people who are family members of some of the deceased in "the Clinton body count" - including Jerry Parks' daughter. I have far more information on this than you're aware of, pup. But in regards to this statement, Gennifer Flowers statements alone are credible. Why? Because the statements that she made, which Clinton lied about and denied, were backed up by a verified audio tape of Clinton. So the videotape isn't needed to prove her story. Bill Clinton is caught in one clear lie and she is upheld as telling the truth. Now any rational person realizes at that point that she had no need to lie about anything else. In fact, lying at that point places her in physical danger considering what happened to her neighbor. While Clinton must continue lying to try and save face.

We've seen Clinton lie to the American public on national television, as he wagged his finger and vehemently stated "I want you to listen to me, I did not have sexual relations with that woman." We've even seen him go so far as to commit perjury, be disbarred and be convicted to lie over an affair - all VERIFIABLE.

Just how far will he go to conceal an affair or corrupt business dealings? How far will the Clintons go to protect their positions? That is the question.

2. I've already shown that numerous claims were false or hearsay.

Irrelevant. Even if what you're saying were to be 100% accurate, it's still an Appeal to the Majority fallacy in regards to this event.

3. How can I tell if this claim is accurate either?

As palerider correctly noted, how can you tell if it isn't accurate? Why don't you want to know the truth about the matter? Why do you seek to dodge the question based on fallacies?

You're busted on this one.

...and frequently, when people are assaulted and beaten, it's by people they've never seen before.

ROTFL. Again, an Appeal to the Majority fallacy. Even if it does happen in the majority of cases, that doesn't prove that it happened in this case.

Two things occuring together doesn't prove a cause and effect relationship.

Right - but in the course of any criminal investigation, the investigators must consider MOTIVE. And who was the only person who had the motive to commit this crime?

Here's some more pertinent info on the subject:

Clinton-Connected Bribes, Break-ins, Beatings, Death Threats

By Carl Limbacher October 12, 1998


Reportedly, Ken Starr is investigating Kathleen Willey's allegation that her property was vandalized and her children threatened just before she appeared before Starr's Monicagate grand jury.

But if Henry Hyde waits for the methodical Starr to complete his work on the Willey allegation, Bill Clinton could be pensioner back home in Little Rock before Congress gets a referral. Hyde need not depend on Starr when the list of witnesses with published accounts of scandal-connected threats, break-ins, beatings, and bribe attempts is as long as his arm.

Here are just a few of them:

Americans know about Gennifer Flowers' 12-year affair with President Clinton. But they aren't familiar with what Flowers says happened to her just before she went public with her story.

"I was getting threats. I had some saying I was going to be beaten up. I had some saying that I would be killed," Flowers told a New York radio audience in July 1997.

Flowers even fingered Clinton himself, whom she believes ordered agents to search her apartment for any evidence that could expose their relationship. Though portrayed by the media as a gold digger, Flowers' real reason for tape-recording her lover and then going public was self-preservation.

"Some very scary things were going on," she said. "... I made those tapes for my own protection."

Sally Perdue alleged only a brief affair with Clinton in 1983 but ran into similar trouble when Clinton embarked on his quest for national office nine years later.

She told the London Telegraph in 1994 that a Democratic operative had approached her, offered a bribe, and told Perdue that he "couldn't guarantee the safety of her pretty little legs" if she didn't cooperate. His name, according to Perdue, was Ron Tucker.

Afterwards, Perdue's car window was mysteriously broken. A spent shotgun shell was found on the car seat.

Loren Kirk had merely once shared an apartment with Gennifer Flowers, but that was enough for her to be chased down. San Francisco private eye Jack Palladino -- referred to as a "knee buster" by one Republican personally familiar with his 1992 work -- paid Kirk a visit that summer. And according to the American Spectator in April 1994, Palladino posed a chilling question to her.

"Is Gennifer Flowers the sort of person who would commit suicide?" the enforcer wanted to know.

Palladino was paid over $100,000 for his work as an alleged bimbo silencer. Dick Morris has questioned whether Palladino was paid from federal funds, which he rightly says would be a devastating development if proved.

Morris, who's spent the last few months warning about the "Clinton secret police," is apparently unaware that the Clinton watchdog group Citizens United published a copy of the pertinent page from the Clinton campaign's 1992 Federal Election Commission disbursement report. It suggests that at least $17,000 worth of Palladino's expenses were paid with campaign monies that had federal matching funds mixed in.

Another Flowers-related victim would be her Quapaw Towers neighbor, Gary Johnson, who says his videotape of Clinton standing outside her door was stolen by thugs who beat him to a pulp and left him for dead.

America could learn a thing or two from Johnson's testimony, and Hyde might supplement it with a deposition from writer L.J. Davis, who claims he was knocked unconscious in his hotel room while researching a report for the New Republic on Hillary Clinton's Rose Law Firm.

Former Miss America Elizabeth Ward Gracen has recounted in two recent interviews the incredible pressure brought to bear to win her silence about her own 1982 one night stand with Clinton. Her digs were also broken into in an apparent attempt to round up damaging evidence before it fell into the hands of Paula Jones' lawyers.

Arkansas state Trooper L.D. Brown claims he was approached in London last year by Clinton operatives who offered him $100,000 to change his Whitewater testimony. Trooper Danny Ferguson alleged in late 1993 that the president himself called and offered a federal job for his silence about the women he procured for Clinton, one of whom was Paula Jones.

The press was compelled to pick up the original "Troopergate" reports, broken first in the Los Angeles Times and the American Spectator, largely because of Ferguson's bribery charge. Both USA Today and the American Lawyer have reported that friends of Ferguson strongly suspect that he has the Clinton bribery call on tape.

Is anyone in the main press interested in all this? Not so far. But unless Henry Hyde wants to see his hearings degenerate into a squabble about the relevance of perjury about sex, he’d better get interested. For instance, how about a subpoena for Danny Ferguson and the Clinton tape his friends believe he has?

Partisans can argue till the cows come home about whether lies about sex are impeachable. But a similar debate about Clinton-connected bribery, blackmail, and beatings should be rather short.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

"An apparent pattern of violence and intimidation has befallen a number of men and women with ties to Bill and Hillary Clinton, their partners in business, law and politics, and people investigating their affairs..." - The Arizona Republic, June 7, 1994

 

[Popeye]

From an interview with veteran crime reporter Dan Moldea, who in his book "A Washington Tragedy", also concludes Vince Foster committed suicide.

Why Vincent Foster can't rest in peace

On July 20, 1993, Vincent Foster was found dead at Ft. Marcy Park in Northern Virginia with a .38-caliber revolver in his hand. An autopsy revealed that it was a straight-ahead suicide -- Foster had placed the gun in his mouth and fired one shot that blasted through his head. End of story? Not by a long shot. Nearly five years later, the Foster suicide lives on in the hearts and minds of right-wing Clintonphobes and conspiracy theorists who believe that Foster, a close friend and advisor of the president, was murdered because he knew too much.

A year ago, veteran crime reporter Dan Moldea was surprised by an offer from Al Regnery, the head of the conservative Regnery Publishing house, to write a book about the Foster case. Moldea, an unabashed liberal who had twice voted for Clinton, had also been scathingly critical of one of Regnery's authors, LAPD detective Mark Furhman. Regnery was so impressed with Moldea's exhaustive reporting in books such as "The Killing of Robert F. Kennedy: An Investigation of Motive, Means, and Opportunity" and "Evidence Dismissed: The Inside Story of the Police Investigation of O.J. Simpson," he wanted Moldea to write the definitive work on the Foster case. Regnery gave Moldea a $100,000 advance and seven months to complete his work.

In the resulting book, "A Washington Tragedy: How the Death of Vincent Foster Ignited a Political Firestorm," Moldea confirms -- again -- that Foster's death was indeed a suicide and that a cabal of right-wing groups -- financed by banking heir Richard Mellon Scaife -- is responsible for keeping the case alive for years in an effort to tarnish the Clinton White House. Moldea also blasts the media -- particularly the Wall Street Journal op-ed page and reporter Christopher Ruddy -- for stoking the conspiracy fires with specious facts and inflammatory rhetoric.

In an interview with Salon, Moldea also accused Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's office of leaking confidential information to the press, a charge he made during a speech at a Washington, D.C., public library last Tuesday. Moldea says that while writing his book he spoke with Starr's chief deputy, Hickman Ewing, who said he routinely gave information to journalists sympathetic to the independent counsel's point of view.

Salon spoke with Moldea by phone from his Washington office about these charges, about Foster's death, his alleged affair with Hillary Rodham Clinton and why he believes Regnery is pushing his book under the rug.

How did you go about investigating Vincent Foster's death?

I did what no one else had done -- I went to every single cop involved in this case -- whether he was involved in the crime scene search or part of the official investigation. I saw all the crime scene photographs and I saw all the autopsy photographs. I don't think I was prevented from seeing any of the documents I wanted to see. I am a bona fide crime reporter with great -- and loyal -- sources in law enforcement. I've been doing this for 24 years and you get to know people.

And from those sources and documents it was clear to you that Foster committed suicide?

Yes. It was a no-brainer. But I also looked into the aftermath of the suicide: the search of Foster's office, which led to the discovery of the torn-up note, which led to the interviews that law enforcement conducted, which confirmed, finally, that Foster had, in fact, committed suicide.

What was the chief source of the doubts and the resulting conspiracy theories?

Some mouthy Park Police official, talking about things he knew nothing about, starts to serve as a source to some reporters who start publishing front-page stories saying things like "[former White House counsel] Bernie Nussbaum had removed documents from Foster's office on the night Foster killed himself," which is flat-out not true, even though it appeared on the front page of the New York Times. This teed up the ball for a lot of other things -- for instance, the next allegation, that during the official search of Foster's office three piles of documents were found, which is true, but that Foster's attorney Jim Hamilton wound up with the Whitewater documents, which is completely untrue. Again, the ball is teed up and everyone starts swinging away at it, and it eventually leads to Congress getting involved, saying the media is raising all these questions. And it all started with a Park Police source, Major Robert Hines. And what he said was false.

Why did he say all this?

I don't think there was anything nefarious here; I think he was being approached by reporters and he wanted something to say. I doubt that he realized that he was giving false information, but the fact is, he was. When he starts talking to Reed Irvine at Accuracy in Media, and Christopher Ruddy, who was then at the New York Post, he tells them that there is no exit wound in Foster's head, which was also untrue. This tees up the ball for the conspiracy people to come in. After this information starts to get printed, Hines starts to come back and say, "Hey, I made a mistake here." But by then these people are off and running.

Who were the major players perpetrating the conspiracy theories?

There were a couple of major people who were involved in this: Chris Ruddy of the New York Post, and later with the Pittsburgh Tribune Review, which is owned by Richard Mellon Scaife -- who is another player. There was also Joseph Farah, the executive director of the Western Journalism Center, which supposedly engages in nonprofit, pro-journalistic projects -- which of course just happen to be right-wing projects.

The rest of the interview here http://www.salon.com/news/1998/05/28news.html

 

[top gun]

Personally I think it was Socks the Clinton's cat that did Foster in.

There was a well documented incident in the oval office where Vince Foster stepped on Socks' tail in a meeting with the President.

Sock's vowed that if he ever got his paws on a gun he'd make old clumsy pay for his disrespect.

Months later Socks high on catnip got his chance when a young Secret Service Agent forgot to lock up his backup piece and left it lying on the desk in the Secret Service office.

Like a Puma Socks sprang into action retrieving the gun... tracking down Foster and staging the fake suicide.

After returning the murder weapon Socks returned to his place in the window of the oval office, knowing he had saved his masters the Clintons from untold damage by a flawed and clumsy man.

 

[Truth-Bringer]

From an interview with veteran crime reporter Dan Moldea, who in his book "A Washington Tragedy", also concludes Vince Foster committed suicide.

Wow, a liberal who probably voted for Clinton thinks it's a suicide... Now there's a shocker...

And your boy Dan ignored the handwriting analysis from the private forensic investigators. As did all 3 investigations.

 

[Coyote]

Then look it up. What are you afraid of.



I have spoken directly to people who are family members of some of the deceased in "the Clinton body count" - including Jerry Parks' daughter.

And I think you're full of ****.

 

[Coyote]

Wow, a liberal who probably voted for Clinton thinks it's a suicide... Now there's a shocker...

Wow, a libertarian who hates Clinton thinks he murdered Foster...now there's a shocker.

 

[Coyote]

From an interview with veteran crime reporter Dan Moldea, who in his book "A Washington Tragedy", also concludes Vince Foster committed suicide.

The rest of the interview here http://www.salon.com/news/1998/05/28news.html

Don't bother Popeye. If it it's an article from a liberal then it's automatically going to be wrong or biased. The only articles that count in "Truth"bringers debates are those that agree with her.