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Trumps first budget

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by Walter, Mar 16, 2017.

  1. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    But education is a responsibility of the states, and so he wants to shut down the Department of Education.

    Sounds like mixed signals to me.
     
  2. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Jefferson, and the other Founders, did not think it was solely the responsibility of the States. And while home schooling was the basis of American education at the time, the Founders supported a public education system:

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/opinio...cle_f05aa5b0-2fed-5c63-be1a-1b013cf49625.html

    "Rather than squabbling, Adams and Jefferson knew that public education was at the heart of democracy. “The whole people must take upon themselves the education of the whole people and be willing to bear the expenses of it,” wrote Adams. “There should not be a district of one mile square, without a school in it, not founded by a charitable individual, but maintained at the public expense of the people themselves.”

    Jefferson, witness to the Revolution, drafter of the Declaration of Independence, and founder of the nation’s first public university, rightfully believed that it was the government and citizenry’s duty to invest tax dollars in public education: “[T]he tax which will be paid for this purpose [education] is not more than the thousandth part of what will be paid to kings, priests and nobles who will rise up among us if we leave the people in ignorance.”
     
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  3. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Yes, and yet Trump's position (one of them anyway)

     
  4. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    If it's the responsibility of the state's (and it should be) why do we need it? our ranking in the world has only gone down since it was established.
     
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  5. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Wrong, as usual. Capitalism, and the drive for profit, and control, is what has destroyed education.

    http://www.hermes-press.com/education_index.htm

    "We are not speaking of education in the narrower sense, but of that other education in virtue from youth upwards, which makes a man eagerly pursue the ideal perfection of citizenship, and teaches him how both to rule and be ruled virtuously. This is the only education which, upon our view, deserves the name; that other sort of training, which aims at the acquisition of wealth or bodily strength, or mere cleverness apart from intelligence and justice, is mean and illiberal, and is not worthy to be called education at all."

    Plato, Laws I, 643e


    As the Founders said, and Plato affirms, education should instill virtue, not greed. And still that is beyond your understanding.
     
  6. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Quick answer: We don't need it. It just makes for one more layer of bureaucracy.
     
  7. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    If we didn't need it then it probably would not be there. And while the DOE has become a bloated agency hardly representing what it was intended for, the abolishing of the system would leave education in the hands of "strictly for profit" parties like deVos, and the end result would be an even dumber society then then one we have now.
     
  8. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not sure I understand that.
    If we didn't need it, it probably wouldn't be there? Does that apply to all government entities then?
    And it is the "strictly for profit" mentality that has been given the responsibility of running the Dept. Of Education. The federal government shouldn't be running education at all. Let it do a better job of running what it's supposed to run.
     
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  9. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Agreed.
     
  10. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Need has nothing to do with it.
     
  11. Openmind

    Openmind Well-Known Member

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    So sad! In my 66 years, I have never felt hate. . .until now. I am fighting it, but I can't help to hate this son of a bitch!
     
  12. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    First off, how has the government profited from running a free public education system? I would agree that with the appointment of deVos it will now turn into a "for profit" system driving out the poor who are attending underfunded systems now. Another little tidbit you ignore is that the Fed only funds 8% of the educational process. Hardly establishing a system of control. Even the text books are not controlled by the Fed, nor is the selection of teachers. If the Fed has any control it is because the people themselves allow it. When I was growing up we had the Parent/Teacher Association (PTA) which actually decided much of the curriculum. Now parents have shoved their children off on the schools making the school a "baby sitter" while the parent seeks a career.

    As to the need for the DOE, like any government agency it has become super bloated with bureaucrats that seem to feel they know better then anyone else. And the agenda of the DOE has radically changed. Prior to 1979 the education department was part of the Department of Health, Education, and Welfare. In 1979 the Department of Education was created separating it from the DHS. The purpose of this new department was 5 fold:

    "Strengthen the federal commitment to assuring access to equal educational opportunity for every individual;
    Supplement and complement the efforts of states, the local school systems and other instrumentalities of the states, the private sector, public and private nonprofit educational research institutions, community-based organizations, parents, and students to improve the quality of education;
    Encourage the increased involvement of the public, parents, and students in federal education programs;
    Promote improvements in the quality and usefulness of education through federally supported research, evaluation, and sharing of information;
    Increase the accountability of federal education programs to the President, the Congress, and the public."

    Of course we know how that went.

    All of this could be fixed if parents were to get involved as many Black parents are in the poor schools. They won't, the system will get worse as technology grows and children fall further behind, and the right wing will use it as an excuse to eliminate education for more poor children, and the disadvantaged. Of course, they will also whine about the increased need for more welfare.
     
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  13. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    School choice, real choice in which the parents get to decide where to send their kids, and schools have to compete for business might be a good thing as long as schools had to be accredited and had to actually teach basic curriculum.

    The problem with what De Voss wants is just what you said: The Feds only fund a small percent of education anyway.

    So, what a federal "voucher" that only covers a portion of the cost really amounts to is a subsidy to private schools, and not real choice.

    The right wing, which seems to have become Trump's base despite him not being a right winger himself, would like to eliminate public education and establish private schools where kids could be indoctrinated to their way of thinking. Mandatory prayer, a Bible centered curriculum, God, country and the American flag, make good little Christian soldiers out of them. The fed can't accomplish that, of course, but they can take a few steps in that direction.
     
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  14. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    So you believe it's impossible for a parochial school to teach a standard curriculum and be accredited (same thing really) ? Quite a few schools would be surprised to hear that. The best prep schools where I live among them.
     
  15. Old_Trapper70

    Old_Trapper70 Well-Known Member

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    Trump has always been a right winger in spite of opinions to the contrary. Other then that I pretty much agree with what you said.

    http://theweek.com/articles/664405/...ost-rightwing-administration-american-history
     
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