The Best Explanation That I've Ever Found on Islamic Fanaticism

[Cruella]

However, I do not believe, as the original poster has stated, that the major voice of Islam is one of radicalism and extremism. These points, using facts and figures, rather than wild and unfounded speculation, seem to prove my point.

Islam was only one aspect of the OP's point of view. The over-all implication is that through history, the silent majority allowed bad things to happen by not speaking out.

 

[cashmcall]

I decided to actually locate some facts, rather than speculating about an old, unknown poll. Here is a poll from the very reputable Gallup surveys:

- “At least half of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are concerned about religious extremist groups in their country.”
- “In most countries where a question about so-called 'honor' killings was asked, majorities of Muslims say such killings are never justified.”
- "In most countries where the survey asked Muslims about religious extremism, more than 75% say suicide and other violence against civilians is rarely or never justified.”
- “In only seven of the 38 countries where the question was asked do at least half of Muslims describe conflict between religious groups as a very big national problem.”
- “In 31 of the 37 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims believe ademocratic government, rather than a leader with a strong hand, is best able to address their country’s problems.”
The survey does justify concern over support for radical Islam, particularly in the so-called emerging democracies of the Muslim world. For example:
- “Four in 10 Palestinian Muslims see suicide bombing as often or sometimes justified.”
- “In Afghanistan, a substantial minority of Muslims (39%) say that this form of violence against civilian targets is often or sometimes justifiable in defense of Islam.”
- “In Egypt, about three in 10 (29%) consider suicide bombing justified at least sometimes.”
Now, I would like to once against clarify I do not like Islam. I do not "like" any organised religion. However, I do not believe Islam to be inherently, overwhelmingly radical in the modern age. It is more radicalized than Christianity at the moment no doubt. The last few statistics in particular are unacceptable.

However, I do not believe, as the original poster has stated, that the major voice of Islam is one of radicalism and extremism. These points, using facts and figures, rather than wild and unfounded speculation, seem to prove my point.

I make no claim to being able to quantify. However, it is epistemically defective to argue it is 'factually' obvious that Islam is ruled by fanatics.

Did you read your own post? what you posted shows no more proof of who rules.. two words... Cognitive Dissonance
I

 

[dogtowner]

I decided to actually locate some facts, rather than speculating about an old, unknown poll. Here is a poll from the very reputable Gallup surveys:

- “At least half of Muslims in most countries surveyed say they are concerned about religious extremist groups in their country.”
- “In most countries where a question about so-called 'honor' killings was asked, majorities of Muslims say such killings are never justified.”
- "In most countries where the survey asked Muslims about religious extremism, more than 75% say suicide and other violence against civilians is rarely or never justified.”
- “In only seven of the 38 countries where the question was asked do at least half of Muslims describe conflict between religious groups as a very big national problem.”
- “In 31 of the 37 countries where the question was asked, at least half of Muslims believe ademocratic government, rather than a leader with a strong hand, is best able to address their country’s problems.”
The survey does justify concern over support for radical Islam, particularly in the so-called emerging democracies of the Muslim world. For example:
- “Four in 10 Palestinian Muslims see suicide bombing as often or sometimes justified.”
- “In Afghanistan, a substantial minority of Muslims (39%) say that this form of violence against civilian targets is often or sometimes justifiable in defense of Islam.”
- “In Egypt, about three in 10 (29%) consider suicide bombing justified at least sometimes.”
Now, I would like to once against clarify I do not like Islam. I do not "like" any organised religion. However, I do not believe Islam to be inherently, overwhelmingly radical in the modern age. It is more radicalized than Christianity at the moment no doubt. The last few statistics in particular are unacceptable.

However, I do not believe, as the original poster has stated, that the major voice of Islam is one of radicalism and extremism. These points, using facts and figures, rather than wild and unfounded speculation, seem to prove my point.

pretty well aligns with the poll I recalled and certainly belies any notion that extremism is a small minority.

 

[cashmcall]

I am no fan of religion, but let me just point out a few glaring statements, presented as fact, which are in fact nonsense

that whole post was about "moderate Muslims" and the lack of action on their part and where that might lead...

 

[cashmcall]

I

I am no fan of religion, but let me just point out a few glaring statements, presented as fact, which are in fact nonsense

I was going to let this go, but I can not...YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED MY HISTORY...Part of this is a repost...I read the Sharia Project website before it got scrubbed. It was friggin' scary. I have looked and studied Koranic scripture to see for myself whether it talks of peace or of terror. (The answer is that it commands both.) I am actively educating myself so that I can reach an understanding that works for me. At this point, that means that I am cautious because some of the things that I have found are quite disturbing, and I can't deny that. I have also found hope in the few good things commanded by the Koran, and I do understand that, like with the Bible, there are things in there that were meant for that moment only and cannot be applied to modern day, and if they are, like is being done by terrorists, bad things happen. I am cautious about some specific Muslim individuals because I am not naive, and have actually done my homework. Whether or not Islam is a religion of peace doesn't change the fact that some Muslims find justification for evil there because they want to, and at the same time many people are good people because it teaches them to be that too. But we shouldn't be so naive as to pretend that Islam doesn't command terror and war, because those parts are in the scriptures too.

I am not naive to the fact that Muslims, like ALL people, are self-justifying individuals, just like I am not naive about some Christians who believe in a perversion of Christianity, and should likewise receive our mistrust. Christians who believe in collective salvation, for example, use the Bible to justify their belief, even though it is not in there and is antithetical to the message therein. People of all faiths are individuals and should be treated as such. Some Muslims find a call for violence in their good book. Some Christians, likewise, find calls for evil in their own good book, like when they justified slavery with the Bible. We have to be cautious of individuals who have crazy ideas, who incite, mean to offend, and act ungodly in the name of religion, from wherever they come, even when all they are doing is taking literally the commandments in their scriptures. That is why I was cautious of Imam Rauf, just like I was cautious of the Westboro church and of the pastor that wants to burn Korans in Florida. To me, they are all on the same level: church leaders who are actively creating offense for publicity to build up their own followership, gain fame, and spread their own putrefied versions of religion, doing so in the name of and under the protection of the first amendment, stomping on the hearts of those who refuse to follow them down their ideological sink holes as a religious rite. I refused to say that I was "for" the mosque on ground zero, even though I defended the constitutional right, and now I am glad that I took the stance that I did because I would likewise have to be "for" the Koran burning if I was to have any intellectual integrity. Both are publicity stunts, intended to offend, defended as a practice of religion, protected by property rights as well as the first amendment, stupid, mean, and unwise.

It is not hate to be cautious of an individual that believes they must subvert, conquer, kill and /or enslave. Individuals killed 3000 people on 9/11, but it would be naive to forget that they did it because they felt that their own scriptures told them to. We'd be naive not to look into their own scriptures for some answers. I'm cautious because I'm not naive, and caution is not hate. I do believe that most Muslims are really good people. I have known a few. But we need to beware of the crazies, and expect the non-crazies to excoriate and help us identify the crazies, and not just let them go on murdering and pillaging because of tolerance. Tolerance is a good thing for the most part, to a point, but beyond that point it just becomes naive. We cannot afford to be naive in the name of tolerance, but rather, we need to be tolerant tempered with knowledge. Looking at the ideologies of the majority of Muslims and the ideologies of the terrorists and comparing them is a fair thing to do, and under no circumstances is that hate. Pretending that one is supreme and that the other has no clout is naïve.

At the end of the day, a Sharia state and our constitution are incompatible. The way to fend off the conquest of America by pretend moderates is to defend and uphold our constitution and never give in to changing the law or making special concessions for a religious group in the name of religious tolerance or fear of future

 

[cashmcall]

One more thing I am no fan of religion... But I am a Christian...and as Christians we need to emulate Christ ...

 

[dogtowner]

Did you read your own post? what you posted shows no more proof of who rules.. two words... Cognitive Dissonance
I

lots of leaders and quite a few seem to be perfectly ok with the extremism thats called for in the muslim scripture. probably vexing for ones who are less so but they have to be careful in their actions for fear of reprisals. the nature of this "religion" makes for real problems in a modern world.

 

[cashmcall]

pretty well aligns with the poll I recalled and certainly belies any notion that extremism is a small minority.

Anything above 10% is dangerous

 

[cashmcall]

My take, according to the OP, was the comparison of the Nazi takeover to what they see happening in Islam. While we all have our own opinions on how we view Islam, this is the experience of this German. Apparently there is something very familiar and disconcerting to him.

There is no denying that there is not a radical element to Islam. But what are the percentages? What were the percentages of Germans who were on board with Nazism and how many true Nazis were in positions of power?

It is still the best explanation I have ever read regarding the state of Islam.

 

[cashmcall]

lots of leaders and quite a few seem to be perfectly ok with the extremism thats called for in the muslim scripture. probably vexing for ones who are less so but they have to be careful in their actions for fear of reprisals. the nature of this "religion" makes for real problems in a modern world.

dog,That's an under-statement but well said...

 

[dogtowner]

dog,That's an under-statement but well said...

it must suck to live in fear of your own religion.

Christianity may well have been saved bythe new world where different perspectives could escape persecution and push intolerence out of entrenched organizations. of course it helped that Christian scripture is founded on the love of God as opposed to the iron fist of mohammad.

 

[9sublime]

Did you read your own post? what you posted shows no more proof of who rules.. two words... Cognitive Dissonance
I

The original post may have been opinion, not proof, but I then backed it up with the use of statistics. Pointing to the older post does not show an incoherence in my argument, but development of it. Try and come up with a counter-argument instead.

 

[9sublime]

pretty well aligns with the poll I recalled and certainly belies any notion that extremism is a small minority.

You clearly have trouble reading statistics, let me break it down for you. The word minority means:
The smaller number or part, esp. a number that is less than half the whole number.

In all of those statistics, the vast majority can be described as non-radical. In every question asked, the minority give a radical answer.

Please, if we are going to use facts rather than guess work to base our arguments, we need to actually read and correctly talk about the solid evidence.

 

[9sublime]

Anything above 10% is dangerous

While I agree that the individuals who believe in radical Islam are dangerous, I don't see how you have arrived at the figure of 10% being inherently dangerous to all Islam. It seems like an arbitrary number you have picked up on to reinforce your own beliefs about Islam.

 

[9sublime]

I


I was going to let this go, but I can not...YOU SHOULD HAVE CHECKED MY HISTORY...Part of this is a repost...I read the Sharia Project website before it got scrubbed. It was friggin' scary. I have looked and studied Koranic scripture to see for myself whether it talks of peace or of terror. (The answer is that it commands both.) I am actively educating myself so that I can reach an understanding that works for me. At this point, that means that I am cautious because some of the things that I have found are quite disturbing, and I can't deny that. I have also found hope in the few good things commanded by the Koran, and I do understand that, like with the Bible, there are things in there that were meant for that moment only and cannot be applied to modern day, and if they are, like is being done by terrorists, bad things happen. I am cautious about some specific Muslim individuals because I am not naive, and have actually done my homework. Whether or not Islam is a religion of peace doesn't change the fact that some Muslims find justification for evil there because they want to, and at the same time many people are good people because it teaches them to be that too. But we shouldn't be so naive as to pretend that Islam doesn't command terror and war, because those parts are in the scriptures too.

I am not naive to the fact that Muslims, like ALL people, are self-justifying individuals, just like I am not naive about some Christians who believe in a perversion of Christianity, and should likewise receive our mistrust. Christians who believe in collective salvation, for example, use the Bible to justify their belief, even though it is not in there and is antithetical to the message therein. People of all faiths are individuals and should be treated as such. Some Muslims find a call for violence in their good book. Some Christians, likewise, find calls for evil in their own good book, like when they justified slavery with the Bible. We have to be cautious of individuals who have crazy ideas, who incite, mean to offend, and act ungodly in the name of religion, from wherever they come, even when all they are doing is taking literally the commandments in their scriptures. That is why I was cautious of Imam Rauf, just like I was cautious of the Westboro church and of the pastor that wants to burn Korans in Florida. To me, they are all on the same level: church leaders who are actively creating offense for publicity to build up their own followership, gain fame, and spread their own putrefied versions of religion, doing so in the name of and under the protection of the first amendment, stomping on the hearts of those who refuse to follow them down their ideological sink holes as a religious rite. I refused to say that I was "for" the mosque on ground zero, even though I defended the constitutional right, and now I am glad that I took the stance that I did because I would likewise have to be "for" the Koran burning if I was to have any intellectual integrity. Both are publicity stunts, intended to offend, defended as a practice of religion, protected by property rights as well as the first amendment, stupid, mean, and unwise.

It is not hate to be cautious of an individual that believes they must subvert, conquer, kill and /or enslave. Individuals killed 3000 people on 9/11, but it would be naive to forget that they did it because they felt that their own scriptures told them to. We'd be naive not to look into their own scriptures for some answers. I'm cautious because I'm not naive, and caution is not hate. I do believe that most Muslims are really good people. I have known a few. But we need to beware of the crazies, and expect the non-crazies to excoriate and help us identify the crazies, and not just let them go on murdering and pillaging because of tolerance. Tolerance is a good thing for the most part, to a point, but beyond that point it just becomes naive. We cannot afford to be naive in the name of tolerance, but rather, we need to be tolerant tempered with knowledge. Looking at the ideologies of the majority of Muslims and the ideologies of the terrorists and comparing them is a fair thing to do, and under no circumstances is that hate. Pretending that one is supreme and that the other has no clout is naïve.

At the end of the day, a Sharia state and our constitution are incompatible. The way to fend off the conquest of America by pretend moderates is to defend and uphold our constitution and never give in to changing the law or making special concessions for a religious group in the name of religious tolerance or fear of future

I agree with everything you have said, we seem to share views on Islam almost to the core. It seems all we disagree on is the idea that radicalism is the main 'voice' of Islam. It is not. There is no evidence for this claim, except that the smaller radical minority try and shout a bit louder, and get given a metaphorical megaphone via more press attention throughout the world.