Should voting be mandatory?

[Lagboltz]

The point is that she and a huge number ofother seniors are counted as poverty levelers and getting govt benefitsm. She is not an anomalie.
What happened to them 60-80 years ago ?
No stacking cadavers like cord wood. Maybe people didnt get a new iphone every time a new one came out. Lettuce instead of arrugals. No ovetpriced lux cars.
I know.. hard to believe people can live sensably.

You are saying your step grandmother is not an anomaly when living “ in a retirement community with a 4 star chef and amenities out the wazoo” I would not say that is typical. You are simply stating your gut feeling as usual with no insight in reality. How about those older folks who lost their IRA when the last bubble burst. Or the younger breadwinner who suffered a debilitating accident. Or those who couldn't afford insurance and are stuck with enormous hospital bills.

I think I now understand the mind of at least one conservative: It seems that your gut feeling tells you that practically all those living in poverty blew their savings on cell phones and cars, etc. I take it that you have no other idea on how to handle the 43 million poverty stricken “freeloaders” except that they all deserve to starve or be homeless.

 

[dogtowner]

You are saying your step grandmother is not an anomaly when living “ in a retirement community with a 4 star chef and amenities out the wazoo” I would not say that is typical. You are simply stating your gut feeling as usual with no insight in reality. How about those older folks who lost their IRA when the last bubble burst. Or the younger breadwinner who suffered a debilitating accident. Or those who couldn't afford insurance and are stuck with enormous hospital bills.

I think I now understand the mind of at least one conservative: It seems that your gut feeling tells you that practically all those living in poverty blew their savings on cell phones and cars, etc. I take it that you have no other idea on how to handle the 43 million poverty stricken “freeloaders” except that they all deserve to starve or be homeless.

Step mother not grand mother.
She is certainly at the high end but of a large group whose qualification as in povertyndoes not align with your fantasy.
Are some hurting ? Sure but look closer to see why.
And its interesting you miss the point of iphones and lexuses. Its the kids who sherk duty that the rest of the world takes for granted. How typical of the left who argue endlessly to take money from anyone else but them. After all they need a new Tesla and iwatch

 

[Lagboltz]

Step mother not grand mother.
She is certainly at the high end but of a large group whose qualification as in povertyndoes not align with your fantasy.
Are some hurting ? Sure but look closer to see why.
And its interesting you miss the point of iphones and lexuses. Its the kids who sherk duty that the rest of the world takes for granted. How typical of the left who argue endlessly to take money from anyone else but them. After all they need a new Tesla and iwatch

Yes yes yes. I already understand how you think. A large group is living in style and getting welfare anyway. The rest are starving because they are spending their weekly salary on Teslas, iwatches, 70 inch TVs, etc. You have no basis for thinking that, but if that sort of vision makes you happy so be it.

At least those 43 million poverty stricken people you talk about are making the country prosperous with all those high end goods they are buying. Heaven forbid if they stop buying.

 

[dogtowner]

Yes yes yes. I already understand how you think. A large group is living in style and getting welfare anyway. The rest are starving because they are spending their weekly salary on Teslas, iwatches, 70 inch TVs, etc. You have no basis for thinking that, but if that sort of vision makes you happy so be it.

At least those 43 million poverty stricken people you talk about are making the country prosperous with all those high end goods they are buying. Heaven forbid if they stop buying.

You really need to work on your reading comprehension.

 

[PLC1]

The poor aren't the only ones to benefit from government largess.

From the Washington Post.
“If you expand the definition of "government benefit" to include tax expenditures, … these tax expenditures added up to about $1.2 trillion in 2011. And they tend to flow disproportionately toward wealthier households:”

Good point. Let's eliminate (or at least greatly reduce) that form of government welfare as well.

That is my question to you. I would like to see a better way too. You conservatives are intent on lowering taxes and getting rid of welfare but I have never seen a plan that most conservatives agree upon to handle the 43.5 million in poverty. This is a serious question you have not answered yet.

You haven't seen a plan because conservatives in Washington are as rare as whooping cranes. If that were not so, the corporate welfare you mention would be gone and only the severely disabled would live on government dole without working. The budget would balance, and taxes could actually go down.

But, no, no one will ever propose such a plan. The Tweedledumocrats and the Tweedledeeblicans are uniformly for government growth and dependence, and no one wants to even give the libertarians a try.

 

[Lagboltz]

... only the severely disabled would live on government dole without working. The budget would balance, and taxes could actually go down
...the corporate welfare you mention would be gone and only the severely disabled would live on government dole without working. The budget would balance, and taxes could actually go down.

That's a utopia that I don't think will ever happen. With 43.5 million already in poverty, there is a long way to go to achieve a fiscally sound solution. Between the fiscal and social aspects of the problem there is a real dilemma, but most conservatives seem to deny there is a social problem.

Certainly welfare is the liberal solution, but I agree, there seems to be no proven fiscally conservative plan to thwart poverty. Unless they say, “Let them eat cake.” You know what happened after that.

 

[dogtowner]

No conservative plan ?
Start by realizing that poverty anything but an objective term.

 

[Lagboltz]

No conservative plan ?
Start by realizing that poverty anything but an objective term.

Why don't you start realizing that poverty is a very objective term defined at the Census Bureau website. They have very explicit formulae, and even a spreadsheet covering different cases.

My gosh you are continually such a victim of Truthiness (a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.)

 

[BigRob]

Voter suppression was a big stink in Florida in the mid term elections. There is no exaggeration in the Palm Beach Post.
Google the key words,
voter suppression florida
and you will see it is no fantasy.

I grow tired of the constant claims of "voter suppression" by Democrats. It is laughable when you fairly examine the facts on the ground and it really seems to only come up when the Democrats were defeated. Essentially the argument being "It is not that the public voted against us (because how could that possibly be), rather it is that the Republicans cheated."

The entire mindset is absurd. You lost an election. It wasn't because the election was unfair - it was because the other side did a better job. Probably most laughable of all is the claim I saw in the Huffington Post that alleged that 600,000 Texans were prevented from voting due to Voter ID laws and therefore that is what caused Wendy Davis to lose. If you follow politics at all it immediately becomes clear why this is one of the most absurd statements you will ever hear - and yet here it is - printed in the Huffington Post.

I live in Houston, and often we hear Texas just wants to suppress the minority vote via Voter ID laws and voter fraud is not real. Here is just one example from the 2014 canvass report for Harris County. Pct 742 shows a count of 0 (yes zero) registered voters. Yet somehow 11 voters turned up and voted in that precinct. This is straight off the official canvass report. You want to argue voter ID is just a suppression tactic to a problem that doesn't exist - but the facts are clear.

 

[dogtowner]

Why don't you start realizing that poverty is a very objective term defined at the Census Bureau website. They have very explicit formulae, and even a spreadsheet covering different cases.

My gosh you are continually such a victim of Truthiness (a quality characterizing a "truth" that a person making an argument or assertion claims to know intuitively "from the gut" or because it "feels right" without regard to evidence, logic, intellectual examination, or facts.)

so why is it stepmom qualifies ?
And please tell me you realize that the elements of the formulas are what make it objective or not.

 

[Lagboltz]

I grow tired of the constant claims of "voter suppression" by Democrats. It is laughable when you fairly examine the facts on the ground and it really seems to only come up when the Democrats were defeated. Essentially the argument being "It is not that the public voted against us (because how could that possibly be), rather it is that the Republicans cheated."

I grow tired of people making claims “from their gut” without knowing what actually happened.

In Florida voter lists were arbitrarily purged and included large percentages of registered voters who had to re-register. Early voting hours were curtailed. That lead to voting lines up to three city blocks long with nowhere nearby to park.

Furthermore it wasn't just the midterm elections. It was also the national election where Obama won, so it had nothing to do with sour Democratic “post election analysis” because it happened before the election. Furthermore, Obama won the election despite the Republican efforts.
Republicans were in on the voter suppression. From the Palm Beach Post:

"Wayne Bertsch, who handles local and legislative races for Republicans, said he knew targeting Democrats was the goal. “In the races I was involved in in 2008, when we started seeing the increase of turnout and the turnout operations that the Democrats were doing in early voting, it certainly sent a chill down our spines. And in 2008, it didn’t have the impact that we were afraid of. It got close, but it wasn’t the impact that they had this election cycle,” Bertsch said, referring to the fact that Democrats picked up seven legislative seats in Florida in 2012 despite the early voting limitations.
Another GOP consultant, who did not want to be named, also confirmed that influential consultants to the Republican Party of Florida were intent on beating back Democratic turnout in early voting after 2008.
A GOP consultant who asked to remain anonymous out of fear of retribution said black voters were a concern. “I know that the cutting out of the Sunday before Election Day was one of their targets only because that’s a big day when the black churches organize themselves,” he said."​

The entire mindset is absurd. You lost an election. It wasn't because the election was unfair - it was because the other side did a better job. Probably most laughable of all is the claim I saw in the Huffington Post that alleged that 600,000 Texans were prevented from voting due to Voter ID laws and therefore that is what caused Wendy Davis to lose. If you follow politics at all it immediately becomes clear why this is one of the most absurd statements you will ever hear - and yet here it is - printed in the Huffington Post.

I really don't care about Texas. The problem in Florida was a stink well before the election took place and especially during the election.

 

[Lagboltz]

so why is it stepmom qualifies ?

Did she actually qualify? Did she apply for welfare and get it?

And please tell me you realize that the elements of the formulas are what make it objective or not.

The formula is used by the government, and not related to an informal feeling you might have.

 

[BigRob]

I grow tired of people making claims “from their gut” without knowing what actually happened.

I bet you do - but that is not what has occurred here.

In Florida voter lists were arbitrarily purged and included large percentages of registered voters who had to re-register. Early voting hours were curtailed. That lead to voting lines up to three city blocks long with nowhere nearby to park.

There is nothing wrong with cleaning up the voter rolls. Florida tried for years to get access to the DHS database to scrub illegal aliens and non-citizens off the rolls. Shockingly DHS refused to grant them access and all they got for their effort was an order from the Department of Justice to stop. They had to go to court and sue to get access to good information to clean up the rolls.

Election integrity is important. Attempting to fault a state for trying to maintain election integrity is absurd. Only American citizens are allowed to vote in elections - let's ensure that this is the case.

As for hours being curtailed and long lines - that occurred for everyone - not simply Democrats.

Furthermore it wasn't just the midterm elections. It was also the national election where Obama won, so it had nothing to do with sour Democratic “post election analysis” because it happened before the election. Furthermore, Obama won the election despite the Republican efforts.

Yes - somehow those Democrats overcame a massive Republican voter suppression conspiracy right? From Forbes citing an MIT study:

Democratic media and talking points do not disclose that 2012 wait times were slightly shorter than in 2008, there were no significant differences in wait times by party identification, voters were satisfied with the voting process, and expressed considerable support for voter IDs. The 2012 election was much the same as 2008 but without the same Democrat gnashing of teeth over voter suppression.

Republicans were in on the voter suppression. From the Palm Beach Post:

"Wayne Bertsch, who handles local and legislative races for Republicans, said he knew targeting Democrats was the goal. “In the races I was involved in in 2008, when we started seeing the increase of turnout and the turnout operations that the Democrats were doing in early voting, it certainly sent a chill down our spines. And in 2008, it didn’t have the impact that we were afraid of. It got close, but it wasn’t the impact that they had this election cycle,” Bertsch said, referring to the fact that Democrats picked up seven legislative seats in Florida in 2012 despite the early voting limitations.
Another GOP consultant, who did not want to be named, also confirmed that influential consultants to the Republican Party of Florida were intent on beating back Democratic turnout in early voting after 2008.
A GOP consultant who asked to remain anonymous out of fear of retribution said black voters were a concern. “I know that the cutting out of the Sunday before Election Day was one of their targets only because that’s a big day when the black churches organize themselves,” he said." ​

All this tells us is that consultants in the area are aware of a shifting demographic. They would be complete idiots to not be aware of this. It doesn't amount to some widespread, coordinated effort to suppress Democrats.

​

I really don't care about Texas. The problem in Florida was a stink well before the election took place and especially during the election.

Of course you don't. I also notice you ignored the clear cut evidence of voter fraud and essentially disregard the entire concept and importance of election integrity.

 

[Lagboltz]

I bet you do - but that is not what has occurred here.

It certainly has. And your truthiness occurs again in your reply.

There is nothing wrong with cleaning up the voter rolls....

Certainly not. But it is wrong when Republican controlled Florida does it fraudulently.

To suppress "felons" in earlier elections:

“James Lee testified, before the McKinney panel, that the state had given DBT the directive to add to the purge list people who matched at least 90% of a last name.

Lee went on saying that the state then ordered DBT to shift to an even lower threshold of 80% match, allowing also names to be reversed (thus a person named Thomas Clarence could be taken to be the same as Clarence Thomas). Besides this, middle initials were skipped, Jr. and Sr. suffixes dropped, and some nicknames and aliases were added to puff up the list.”​

To me that is criminal voter suppression. After further examination of the Leon County “felon” list only 5% were actual felons. These are examples of some that were to be purged:

Johnny Jackson Jr., Date of Birth, 1970; crime, none, mistaken for John Fitzgerald Jackson who was still in his jail cell in Texas

Wallace McDonald, Date of Birth, 1928; crime, fell asleep on a bus-stop bench in 1959

Randall J. Higginbotham, Date of Birth, August 28, 1960; crimes, none, mistaken for Sean David Higginbotham, born June 16, 1971

Reverend Willy D. Whiting Jr., crime, a speeding ticket from 1990, confused with Willy J. Whiting who have birthdays 2 days apart
​

Also, more than 1,300 registered voters were matched with felons even though their races or sexes were different.

That was done purposefully and is voter suppression.

Democratic media and talking points do not disclose that 2012 wait times were slightly shorter than in 2008, there were no significant differences in wait times by party identification, voters were satisfied with the voting process, and expressed considerable support for voter IDs. The 2012 election was much the same as 2008 but without the same Democrat gnashing of teeth over voter suppression.

I am talking about Florida. You and the Forbes article are talking about the entire country. The voting lines in Florida were much much worse than the average for the country.

All this tells us is that consultants in the area are aware of a shifting demographic. They would be complete idiots to not be aware of this. It doesn't amount to some widespread, coordinated effort to suppress Democrats.

Again you misunderstood the post. They actually did admit to a widespread, coordinated effort to suppress Democrats in Florida. Read it again. GOP consultants said, “"Wayne Bertsch, who handles local and legislative races for Republicans, said he knew targeting Democrats was the goal.” … “were intent on beating back Democratic turnout in early voting after 2008.” … “cutting out of the Sunday before Election Day was one of their targets only because that’s a big day when the black churches organize themselves,”

That is a clear cut admission of Democratic voter suppression by the Florida Republican administration. How could you miss that? And why do you brush that off as a “shifting demographic”

I also notice you ignored the clear cut evidence of voter fraud and essentially disregard the entire concept and importance of election integrity.

My post you referred to in #84 was about Republican suppression aimed at Democrats in Florida. You keep trying to conflate the Florida problem with Texas, or the rest of the country. I live and vote in Florida and followed the news as it unfolded. Sure there are other problems elsewhere and I don't mean to belittle them, but your conflation is an attempt to belittle Florida's problems.

 

[dogtowner]

Did she actually qualify? Did she apply for welfare and get it?

The formula is used by the government, and not related to an informal feeling you might have.

The is not about welfare its about the so called definition of poverty.
The formula IS designed by the govt and so is twisted to suit the political need. Glad you now get it.