Returning Prayer To Schools - Risky !

[Dr.Who]

Listening to someone else pray is not at all the same as being forced to say a prayer.

The words "heavenly father" unless someone can show me that they are to be found in the Koran or the writings of other religions is a reference to the Christian god.

But a prayer to a general God would not be Christian and would only be objected to by the atheists. And then they would not be objecting becaue they were forced to do anything. They just want to lash out against religion any way they can.

 

[PLC1]

I know! Why not allow the students to pray to whatever god they choose to, or not to pray at all if that's their choice. What a unique ide... what? That's how it is now? Then why change anything?

 

[Dr.Who]

I know! Why not allow the students to pray to whatever god they choose to, or not to pray at all if that's their choice. What a unique ide... what? That's how it is now? Then why change anything?

That is how it is now except when the right to prayer by students is impeded. And in fact I think it should stay that way because federal public schools should not be endorsing any religious view at all.

However, there is no such thing as a federal school as far as I know and if in a particular community the norm is to start football games with a prayer then that is their right. Yes they should not make minority groups feel excluded but lets get serious here. An atheist or a jewish person who is at a football game where it is opened with an invocation is not harmed. Nor would a christian minority (as I was when I attended a school that was 90 something percent jewish) be harmed by being witness to the traditions of another group.

Witnessing what the majority does is not pressure to observe religious beliefs against ones will.

So are there many people who want to return to the days when schools opened footbal games with prayers to a particular Christian God? Not many. ARe there people who would stand behind a misapplied rule of separations of church and state not just to not feel left out but as an act of aggression against Christianity? More than I would like to believe I fear.

The idea that we should not make people feel left out because they do not believe as the majority should never have become a matter for the courts.

 

[dogtowner]

But prayers never get answered. Its like Making a wish. And wishes dont ever come true.

they get answered for me all the time

 

[Apathy]

do what you will. the proof of that pudding is painfully evident to anyone with open eyes.

So I missed the link to the data? Where is it?

 

[Apathy]

I pay them to pee and chill out playing movies for the kids to watch. I got over expecting them to work every second they put in long ago.

The work isn't the issue here... Public funds cannot go to mandatory payer services in a public school. Unless it is perfectly voluntary and not on the public dime; in which case what exactly are you changing?

 

[Apathy]

Listening to someone else pray is not at all the same as being forced to say a prayer.

Certainly not and students can already pray in school.

But a prayer to a general God would not be Christian and would only be objected to by the atheists. And then they would not be objecting becaue[sic] they were forced to do anything. They just want to lash out against religion any way they can.

The only reason you would ever need to make the payer to a general deity is if it was led by a school's administration. In which case the non-establishment clause is clear.

 

[dogtowner]

The work isn't the issue here...

you're the one who made it an issue, not I.

 

[Dr.Who]

So what do those who favor prayer in school want?

I found this (a bill that was not passed):

The measure would allow district courts to “permit the delivery of an inspirational message, including a prayer or an invocation, at a non-compulsory high school activity, including a student assembly, a sports event, or other school related activity if a majority of the participating students request the delivery of an inspirational message and select a student representative to deliver the message.”

It sounds to me like this would be student initiated and student lead, ie. not endorsed by the school. Since it is not endorsed by the school it should not even require a bill or a majority of students to want it. If a Christian student wanted to pray at the beginning of a footbal game for the safety of the team and then a hindu wanted to say a few words next I say let 'em at it.

 

[dogtowner]

So what do those who favor prayer in school want?

I found this (a bill that was not passed):

The measure would allow district courts to “permit the delivery of an inspirational message, including a prayer or an invocation, at a non-compulsory high school activity, including a student assembly, a sports event, or other school related activity if a majority of the participating students request the delivery of an inspirational message and select a student representative to deliver the message.”

It sounds to me like this would be student initiated and student lead, ie. not endorsed by the school. Since it is not endorsed by the school it should not even require a bill or a majority of students to want it. If a Christian student wanted to pray at the beginning of a footbal game for the safety of the team and then a hindu wanted to say a few words next I say let 'em at it.

works for me

 

[GenSeneca]

I've already suggested the best possible solution but that would eliminate the controversy of prayer in public schools... So...

Let's look at the 1st amendment.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...​

​

It clearly states: No public official, employee of the state, or other agent acting in an official capacity thereupon may conduct, endorse, or otherwise participate in a public prayer; Furthermore, no publicly owned, or publicly funded, institution is permitted to have any religious symbols, references, or activities anywhere on it's grounds, at any time, ever.

What... You didn't get all that from the 1st amendment?

Try reading it again from a different perspective...

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Want to be elected President?
Run on a single platform.
"I will gut and restore education to what it once was.
I will end all teacher's unions and hire anyone who can teach--with a degree or not."

Ever have any friends with a degree in education? Please.

 

[dogtowner]

Want to be elected President?
Run on a single platform.
"I will gut and restore education to what it once was.
I will end all teacher's unions and hire anyone who can teach--with a degree or not."

Ever have any friends with a degree in education? Please.

I have a number of them. most are conservative. many have retired as they cant stand the BS.

 

[PLC1]

Want to be elected President?
Run on a single platform.
"I will gut and restore education to what it once was.
I will end all teacher's unions and hire anyone who can teach--with a degree or not."

Ever have any friends with a degree in education? Please.

Why not just stick to the constitution, close down the Department of Education, and leave it up to the states?

Then, perhaps, get the federal government to do what it's supposed to do:
Put an end to illegal immigration,
Put a satisfactory end to the wars in Iraq and Afganistan,
Balance the budget,
and get the hell out of our personal lives.

Education is not a function of the federal government.

 

[Johnny Tremain]

Why not just stick to the constitution, close down the Department of Education, and leave it up to the states?

Then, perhaps, get the federal government to do what it's supposed to do:
Put an end to illegal immigration,
Put a satisfactory end to the wars in Iraq and Afganistan,
Balance the budget,
and get the hell out of our personal lives.

Education is not a function of the federal government.

I agree 100%.