Prove that God doesn't exist.

[ThisTooShallPass]

I don't think many people reject those two arguments.
The difference between (what appears to be ) your beliefs and those arguments is that you attribute the image of a CHRISTIAN God, and that only to those arguments.

If one believe in the unmoved mover, it certainly doesn't mean one must believe in the literal world of the Bible, the New Testament, or that ONLY a religion recognizing the Christian God is correct.

In fact, I would argue that such a belief would be a limitation on the unmoved mover argument.

I do not and have never attributed anything more to those arguments than what they are: logical proofs for the existence of a single, omnipotent God.

There are other reasons to accept the Christian narrative of the nature of that God, but they are dry and historical; numerous books have been written about them.

 

[clarkatticus]

I have been waiting patiently for a week or so for someone to demonstrate the flaw in the Unmoved Mover or First Cause arguments.

The fatal flaw in both those arguments is the same answer. Just because science hasn't divined all answers doesn't mean a diety is the answer. Perhaps we don't have the imagination or the ability to wrap our minds around the answer making the question itself flawed as the question as written and imagined by our tiny brains only allows for a diety to be the answer. We don't even know the nature of human consciousness, that in itself may be a flaw of evolution-why are we aware of ourselves?

 

[PLC1]

why are we aware of ourselves?

Because we are intelligent spirits that have always existed, and always will. We are self aware because we are intelligent, and intelligence is always self aware by definition.

We are currently inhabiting bodies that were created by a higher intelligence through the process of evolution so that we can learn and grow through experiencing life. One day, we may get to create our own world so that other spirits may experience life.

This world is a school, just like Kindergarten and at about the same level.

Or, that is my philosophy. I can't prove it, but, then you can't prove your philosophy either.

 

[ProudLefty]

Because we are intelligent spirits that have always existed, and always will. We are self aware because we are intelligent, and intelligence is always self aware by definition.

We are currently inhabiting bodies that were created by a higher intelligence through the process of evolution so that we can learn and grow through experiencing life. One day, we may get to create our own world so that other spirits may experience life.

This world is a school, just like Kindergarten and at about the same level.

Or, that is my philosophy. I can't prove it, but, then you can't prove your philosophy either.

So, if we are one day to communicate better with the animals and plants and find a species (say Dolphins, for example) that is also self-aware, then what happens to your argument?

 

[ThisTooShallPass]

The fatal flaw in both those arguments is the same answer. Just because science hasn't divined all answers doesn't mean a diety is the answer. Perhaps we don't have the imagination or the ability to wrap our minds around the answer making the question itself flawed as the question as written and imagined by our tiny brains only allows for a diety to be the answer. We don't even know the nature of human consciousness, that in itself may be a flaw of evolution-why are we aware of ourselves?

It is not a scientific argument, and science is not metaphysically prior to philosophy. So this is rather nonsensical.

 

[Lagboltz]

If the unmoved mover is brought in as a quest to understand the universe. It seems that perspective boils down to two steps:

1. The unmoved mover is behind everything that is going on.
2. For details, get 4 years of graduate study in physics and then read Reviews of Modern Physics, and a few hundred related journals.

The basics of the first step can understood rather quickly and has little bearing on the real work of step 2. Dwelling on step 1 is fruitless for understanding anything further about the universe.

 

[ThisTooShallPass]

If the unmoved mover is brought in as a quest to understand the universe. It seems that perspective boils down to two steps:

1. The unmoved mover is behind everything that is going on.
2. For details, get 4 years of graduate study in physics and then read Reviews of Modern Physics, and a few hundred related journals.

The basics of the first step can understood rather quickly and has little bearing on the real work of step 2. Dwelling on step 1 is fruitless for understanding anything further about the universe.

But it's not an argument for the details of how the universe works, and I don't think anyone's ever understood it as such. It's an argument for the existence of God.

 

[Lagboltz]

But it's not an argument for the details of how the universe works, and I don't think anyone's ever understood it as such. It's an argument for the existence of God.

Ok, that's fine. This is a thread on proof of God, and presumably nothing more. I mistakenly thought that theologians believed that their God had a stronger role in managing the universe -- origin of the species, etc.

However, using Aquinas's almost tautological arguments seems to leave his brand of theology rather vacuous.

 

[PLC1]

So, if we are one day to communicate better with the animals and plants and find a species (say Dolphins, for example) that is also self-aware, then what happens to your argument?

It is quite possible that dolphins are self aware, and are also spirits in possession of a body, just a different sort of body.

Perhaps the lesser intelligent animals are spirits as well, maybe less advanced spirits. One day, we will find out, that is, if I'm correct.

If we're just bodies with no spirits, then we'll never know it.

 

[Openmind]

Because we are intelligent spirits that have always existed, and always will. We are self aware because we are intelligent, and intelligence is always self aware by definition.

We are currently inhabiting bodies that were created by a higher intelligence through the process of evolution so that we can learn and grow through experiencing life. One day, we may get to create our own world so that other spirits may experience life.

This world is a school, just like Kindergarten and at about the same level.

Or, that is my philosophy. I can't prove it, but, then you can't prove your philosophy either.

I kind of agree with your philosophy, and I don't need proof. I think that our intuition sometime is as valid as dogmas, whether religious or scientific dogmas, who end up being "adjusted" for accuracy over time (as our collective intelligence or understanding growth).

By living ONLY based on one's intelligence or understanding of currently known facts, we are actually limiting our innate intuition of a basic knowledge that can not be scientifically proven (as yet), but that is nevertheless important.

 

[Lagboltz]

It is quite possible that dolphins are self aware, and are also spirits in possession of a body, just a different sort of body.

Dolphins exhibit self-recognition. Of course it is arguable that this means self-aware in the human sense.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dolphin-self-recognition

 

[Openmind]

Dolphins exhibit self-recognition. Of course it is arguable that this means self-aware in the human sense.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dolphin-self-recognition

Well, self awareness is not exactly evenly distributed even among humans! You have to admit that, in some case, some people may have been asleep when self-awareness was distributed!

And, please, I am not saying that as a cut on anyone person in particular, not even a group of person in particular. It just seems evident that, throughout our life time, we meet people who have absolutely NO self-awareness beyond knowing that they hurt when they hurt, and they're angry when they're angry!

 

[PLC1]

Dolphins exhibit self-recognition. Of course it is arguable that this means self-aware in the human sense.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=dolphin-self-recognition

Yes, they do. Moreover, they have a language, just like we do. The difference may not be one of intelligence at all, but the environment in which they live and the fact that they don't have hands. They can't, after all, build things like we do, or use fire, invent writing, agriculture, and other things that we see as the hallmarks of human intelligence.

 

[ThisTooShallPass]

Ok, that's fine. This is a thread on proof of God, and presumably nothing more. I mistakenly thought that theologians believed that their God had a stronger role in managing the universe -- origin of the species, etc.

However, using Aquinas's almost tautological arguments seems to leave his brand of theology rather vacuous.

Oh. Well, I'm sure some believe that (again, probably superstitious Protestants). I don't see why that's necessary.

 

[Lagboltz]

Well, self awareness is not exactly evenly distributed even among humans! You have to admit that, in some case, some people may have been asleep when self-awareness was distributed!
... throughout our life time, we meet people who have absolutely NO self-awareness beyond knowing that they hurt when they hurt, and they're angry when they're angry!

I have known people that are almost Pavlovian in their interaction with the world. I knew a girl that would not attempt to do meditation because she was afraid. She said she didn't want to know what was in her mind.