No Hell & everyone gets saved.

[a777pilot]

p.s., Hey JP, maybe I am reading you all wrong.

 

[dogtowner]

That's just too funny. So you think you are smarter than God. Interesting. Are you really, really rich? Do we all know you? do have the answer to the Theory of Everything? NO? Must not be too smart. LOL! Hell, just have to read your post to understand you are not that smart.

But keep them coming. They amuse me.

its a good thing I was not taking a drink of anything as I read this, the laptop would be fried. I too admire the good doctor's ability to carry on conversation in these sorts of scenarios, hes a better man than I for it.

 

[Dr.Who]

I must say that of the thousands of postings on assorted Internet forums that I am not accustomed to some one like you who so clearly gives your consideration and sincerity.

As such you have my full respect and appreciation.

Therefore I seek to offer you one more pertinent text which I hope to explain.

Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." KJV.

That one sentence tells so very much.

That "sin" causes "death" and not burning in any hell, and then it declares that the "eternal life" is a "gift" which means we do not already have eternal life, as in no eternal life in Heaven or in Hell as what we had was just death, and Jesus gives us all eternal life at a later date - the Judgement Day.

The thing about sin causing death is that no one (not even God) can live forever (have eternal life) because the sinning will kill anyone and everyone. Sinners can not live on in an eternal hell because the sinner can not live forever as the sin produces death.

It is like one (1) small little lie will grow and grow as a simple little lie can grow into a monstrous horrible reality and that is because as Romans 6:23 declares = sin produces death.

The only way that people can live forever is by removing the sin, just as God can not sin or else the sin would kill God.

Eternal life can not exist in a hell because evil self destructs - as in sin kills and sin produces death, and eternal life can not be sustained unless the sin is extinguished.

Jesus dying on the cross was not the point, as Jesus rising from the dead was the point, in that "DEATH" could not hold Him, per Acts 2:22-32

You give me too much credit.

The way I see it everyone has a soul that is eternal. Death is not the same thing as destruction or anhilation. Death is the reality of an existence separated from God. In fact, death and hell are the same thing; one time compared to the physical death of the body and one time compared to a place.

I agree that the gift of God is eternal life also known as communion with God. I do not see that verse indicating that all will receive the gift but that may be a possibility. If I were to make the case I would point out that God wants all to receive the gift, that verses indicating all do not are somewhat vague or written in metaphor, and of course that first verse you listed "in Christ all shall be made alive". It is not a complete argument but it is a start. One worth looking at.

I would say that God cannot sin because it is contrary to his nature not because it would kill him. After all He would not be separated from Himself.

I believe Jesus' death was just as important as His resurrection.

OK, I think I will take a moment now to look at that verse you first gave (thanks for the link, it made it easier): Looking at the verse in context I would have to say it could still go either way. One the one hand Paul talks about it (probably salvation) being not "only" in this life which adds to what you are saying, then he talks about "they that are in Christ coming [into salvation]" which leaves open the question about they that are not in Christ.

A verse against that interpretation that needs to be looked at is:

"And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:11-12

For the moment what I am calling "universal salvation" is still an open question in my mind.

 

[a777pilot]

You are all idiots. No one, and I mean no one, knows what death is. Why worry about it? Why not worry about life?

This is just too stupid for words.


Note: I have been advised to change the wording of this post. Name calling seems to me a forbidden practice here. That's good. To explain.....I was calling everyone, not just some, to include myself as "idiots" for discussing this subject. So, I will not be editing my words. If my explanation is in sufficient, so be it. I stand by my characterization of this topic and those of us and those everywhere in the world that seem "hell bent" on discussing this subject.

Besides, it is more fun and more appropriate to discuss college football and the BCS polls. Much more meaningful.

 

[Pandora]

You are all idiots. No one, and I mean no one, knows what death is. Why worry about it? Why not worry about life?

This is just too stupid for words.


Note: I have been advised to change the wording of this post. Name calling seems to me a forbidden practice here. That's good. To explain.....I was calling everyone, not just some, to include myself as "idiots" for discussing this subject. So, I will not be editing my words. If my explanation is in sufficient, so be it. I stand by my characterization of this topic and those of us and those everywhere in the world that seem "hell bent" on discussing this subject.

Besides, it is more fun and more appropriate to discuss college football and the BCS polls. Much more meaningful.

Icky gross! College football??? Do you like the Ducks? All I hear about is the ducks here in the people’s republic of eugene. what is a bcs poll? Is it political?

I think this topic if fascinating and I wish there were more serious discussion on the various views of religion here, but it’s mostly normal politics and that is ok since it is the HOP.

 

[JPCusick]

Besides, it is more fun and more appropriate to discuss college football and the BCS polls. Much more meaningful.

I say those subjects have kept very many people completely uninformed and keeps them as irrelevant to the very best parts of living, and from knowing the most interesting aspects of life.

I even say that it is God that empowers such things as sports and games as a way of keeping those people out of interfering where it does matter.

Kind of like giving children toys to play with so that then the grown ups can take care of the real business without the kids getting in the way.

 

[JPCusick]

You give me too much credit.

The way I see it everyone has a soul that is eternal. Death is not the same thing as destruction or anhilation. Death is the reality of an existence separated from God. In fact, death and hell are the same thing; one time compared to the physical death of the body and one time compared to a place.

I have heard that before and there is no Bible text to back that up, and no realistic reasoning to back it up either.

But there are Bible text which directly counter that claim, as some are here given below:

1) "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." KJV Ezekiel 18:4

2) Then Ezekiel said it again = "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." KJV Ezekiel 18:20

3) "... and every living soul died in the sea." KJV Revelation 16:3

4) And do not forget Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

A verse against that interpretation that needs to be looked at is:

"And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Matthew 8:11-12

For the moment what I am calling "universal salvation" is still an open question in my mind.

I say we might expect that the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven are far more complicated and expansive then is commonly viewed.

Thrown out into "outer darkness" does not equate to a Hell-fire, and even the "weeping and gnashing of teeth” does not equate with tortured souls in an eternal torment.

If Jesus had meant = We do as He commands or else He will burn any of us - then Jesus would have said so, but He never said any such thing as that.

 

[dogtowner]

Icky gross! College football??? Do you like the Ducks? All I hear about is the ducks here in the people’s republic of eugene. what is a bcs poll? Is it political?

I think this topic if fascinating and I wish there were more serious discussion on the various views of religion here, but it’s mostly normal politics and that is ok since it is the HOP.

college football is almost as fun as high school football ! BCS is h9ow major collage teams keep score and how they divey up the money. da ducks have recently become players in the upper tiers of collage ball. good for them.

 

[Dr.Who]

That's just too funny. So you think you are smarter than God. Interesting. Are you really, really rich? Do we all know you? do have the answer to the Theory of Everything? NO? Must not be too smart. LOL! Hell, just have to read your post to understand you are not that smart.

But keep them coming. They amuse me.

I can see that you disagree with JP. What I don't see is any indication that JP had made any claim or even an implication to being smarter than God. Jp has merely expressed his opinion on an interpretation. He has done so while being polite and interacting appropriately and in good faith with others here - an asset to the site regardless of who agrees or disagrees.

 

[Dr.Who]

No one, and I mean no one, knows what death is. Why worry about it? Why not worry about life?

No one, and I mean no one, knows what other people know or don't know, except God or those to whom He has revealed such information.

So unless you are making a claim to have been given information from God then you cannot know that others do not know what death is. If you do not believe in revelation then you cannot say that others do not know the meaning of death. But if you do believe in revelation then perhaps it has been revealed to you that others do not know the meaning of death. On the other hand, if you believe in revelation but do not have it then it would be illogical to claim that others do not know.

I assume for sake of discussion, that you do not believe in revelation. Therefore you are stating your opinion that others do not have revelation and cannot know the meaning of death. (though it has not even been proven that they cannot know the meaning of death through empirical methods either) I reject the premise that revelation does not exist. You can have your opinion I just disagree.

 

[Dr.Who]

I have heard that before and there is no Bible text to back that up, and no realistic reasoning to back it up either.

But there are Bible text which directly counter that claim, as some are here given below:

1) "Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die." KJV Ezekiel 18:4

2) Then Ezekiel said it again = "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." KJV Ezekiel 18:20

3) "... and every living soul died in the sea." KJV Revelation 16:3

4) And do not forget Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."



I say we might expect that the Kingdom of God or Kingdom of Heaven are far more complicated and expansive then is commonly viewed.

Thrown out into "outer darkness" does not equate to a Hell-fire, and even the "weeping and gnashing of teeth” does not equate with tortured souls in an eternal torment.

If Jesus had meant = We do as He commands or else He will burn any of us - then Jesus would have said so, but He never said any such thing as that.

To this I apply what I call "Gear theory" Imagine the child's toy which consists of many interconnected gears. One turns clockwise and it causes the other to turn counter-clockwise which causes the next to turn clockwise. With ten or fifteen gears all working together the toy works. But if any one gear turns in the wrong direction the whole things gets jammed.

(not the best picture since this set cannot get jammed but you should get the idea)

Think of each bit of knowledge as one gear. If death means one thing that is like a gear spinning one way. If hell means a thing that is like a gear spinning a certain way. Take all the things we think about life and look at the whole set of gears. The best we can hope for is a theory of life - a world view - in which the set of gears is not jammed.

When we look at a set of gears if the set is jammed we might reject it. Life gets interesting when we try to persuade someone to alter what they think about one of those gears so that their whole set can be changed. It gets even more interesting if there are two sets of gears that both work but contradict each other.

Personally I think that if a set of gears works at all that is an amazing thing which strongly suggests it is the only working set.

What you have proposes so far is internally consistent as far as I can tell and with a very few number of gears in it. It does contradict what I say.

What I have done in the past with things like this is I hold onto these thoughts and mull them over at length. Eventually I discover a gear that requires other gears to be interpreted in certain ways and that means that even more gears need to be interpreted in certain ways...

I will hold onto what you have said and time will no doubt reveal a working pattern or not.

P.S. in case you have not seen it in my set of gears there is no contradiction between saying a soul dies and saying that it is eternal because death is not a ceasing to exist it is just separation from God.

 

[Aus22]

I say those subjects have kept very many people completely uninformed and keeps them as irrelevant to the very best parts of living, and from knowing the most interesting aspects of life.

I even say that it is God that empowers such things as sports and games as a way of keeping those people out of interfering where it does matter.

Kind of like giving children toys to play with so that then the grown ups can take care of the real business without the kids getting in the way.

Many things are more fun than Christmas. However for me as a Catholic, despite sad memories of people who have died it is fun. I do not believe any of them are in hell even non Christians or Non Catholics. They were good people so they are in hell. Catholics beieve some people may be in purgatory for a short time but all good people go to heaven. Few if any go to hell.

 

[Dawkinsrocks]

Can you believe that educated adults can talk seriously about heaven and hell?

It is medieval

 

[Gipper]

Can you believe that educated adults can talk seriously about heaven and hell?

It is medieval

Yeah you are just so much more intelligent than millions of believers living and dead.

Merry Christmas!!!!

 

[dogtowner]

Yeah you are just so much more intelligent than millions of believers living and dead.

Merry Christmas!!!!

I keep waiting for all those facts and such. so far just snark.