Modern Liberalism =- Authoritarianism

[Coyote]

Good post, Coyote, and my bet is that Pale will not have the courage to truly address the REAL issues that he has with gay and transgendered people. My brothers are so similar to Pale that I've even thought that Pale might be one of them.

I think the issues surrounding transgender people has turned the whole notion of gender identity upside down. Is it what you are born with - your chromasomes? (then what are xxy people?)...is it your morphology....? What of hermaphrodites and a host of genetic disorders that produce gender blurring? Is it related to environment (for instance - the character who had a genetic disorder in Middlesex or certain pollutants that can redraw sexual lines)? Environment can hardwire certain things in the brain as well in regards to gender.

What is gender?

Until you can define a "man" and a "woman" - limiting marriage to one of each is senseless isn't it?

I am not sure why people feel so threatened by something that is little more then biology...but they do. Perhaps because, like your brothers - they don't know how to deal with something as fundamental as gender change? I try to put myself in that position...if my brother was transgender. I would still love him - but how to relate to him would something else when our entire history together was of him as a boy. It would be difficult, but if you love someone it shouldn't be impossible.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I think the issues surrounding transgender people has turned the whole notion of gender identity upside down. Is it what you are born with - your chromasomes? (then what are xxy people?)...is it your morphology....? What of hermaphrodites and a host of genetic disorders that produce gender blurring? Is it related to environment (for instance - the character who had a genetic disorder in Middlesex or certain pollutants that can redraw sexual lines)? Environment can hardwire certain things in the brain as well in regards to gender.

What is gender?

Until you can define a "man" and a "woman" - limiting marriage to one of each is senseless isn't it?

I am not sure why people feel so threatened by something that is little more then biology...but they do. Perhaps because, like your brothers - they don't know how to deal with something as fundamental as gender change? I try to put myself in that position...if my brother was transgender. I would still love him - but how to relate to him would something else when our entire history together was of him as a boy. It would be difficult, but if you love someone it shouldn't be impossible.

All of those are good points. People change, the sister you used to fight with is now married and has kids, you have to find a new way to relate to her. Transgender people are much the same except it's the gender presentation that is different and this is shocking in a culture so deeply mired in the gender binary--it DOES make people feel uncomfortable, but so did mixed race children, people with deformities, mentally ill people who live on their own even if they are not a threat to anyone, even people of other religions wearing strange (to us) costumes can be threatening.

It's too bad that the brothers and Pales of the world can't just pony up their fear and work through it with the rest of us. We all struggle with this stuff, shoot! when my brother became a Bible-beater it was a shock to me, the man has a Master's in Psychology and had always been an egalitarian and gentle soul, but he got religion and took his kids out of school, banned me (even the mention of me) from his life, and declared that if you didn't agree with every word in the Bible, then you were arguing with God. It was as if he'd had lobotomy. I don't know how to relate to him, in fact he sent me so much hateful religious crap that I had to block his email. I don't understand, I'm still me.

 

[arbitor]

this thread has really drifted from the original topic don't you think? i can honestly say i dont care about your issues with your brother. work it out somehow. but can we please get back to the topic?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

This thread has really drifted from the original topic don't you think? i can honestly say i dont care about your issues with your brother. work it out somehow. but can we please get back to the topic?

The subject changed by default when the ONLY person supporting the ideas in the OP was the OP'er. He bailed when he got backed into a corner and now there is no discussion for lack of support for the other side. If you'd like to take his position, then please feel free to do so. Until such time I think it is suitable for us to discuss what we wish to discuss--you are not required to read it. Would you like to adopt one of my brothers? They're cheap!

 

[arbitor]

backed into a corner? please. he made much stronger points than any of you. he wasnt backed into anything. and i support his ideas, so he is not the only one who aspires to these beliefs. and yes, i would love to adopt one of your brothers. they seem like very good ones. they are just trying to save you from an eternity of torment. they care. thats why they do what they do.

(f.y.i. talking about whatever the hell you fell like in a forum on a specific topic is called spamming)

 

[Coyote]

backed into a corner? please. he made much stronger points than any of you. he wasnt backed into anything. and i support his ideas, so he is not the only one who aspires to these beliefs. and yes, i would love to adopt one of your brothers. they seem like very good ones. they are just trying to save you from an eternity of torment. they care. thats why they do what they do.

(f.y.i. talking about whatever the hell you fell like in a forum on a specific topic is called spamming)

You support his ideas thus you feel he made much stronger points.

Exactly what makes his points stronger?

Instead of attacking Mare why don't you actually refute the points made vis a vis liberalism, conservatism and authoritarianism? I fail to see the strength of the points made.

(Suggestion - read through the entire thread from the beginning)

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

backed into a corner? please. he made much stronger points than any of you. he wasnt backed into anything. and i support his ideas, so he is not the only one who aspires to these beliefs. and yes, i would love to adopt one of your brothers. they seem like very good ones. they are just trying to save you from an eternity of torment. they care. thats why they do what they do.

(f.y.i. talking about whatever the hell you fell like in a forum on a specific topic is called spamming)

Discussions evolve, when the only people discussing move on, then it's not spamming. It's when some people are trying to discuss the real topic and others bring in stuff that doesn't apply that it is "spam".

As far as you "eternity of torment", well that kind of blasphemy doesn't carry any weight with me, I've had a relationship with my Creator all my life and I don't believe any of the evil lies that Christians and others tell about God. God is not only better than we imagine, He is better than we CAN imagine. You and my brothers are selling fear, and I'm not buying. Anyone one who would use his children to blackmail his parents into pretending that one of their children doesn't exist is not high on my list of good people.

You like Pale's arguments because they're your kind of religious twaddle despite Pale's disingenuous denials. If you want to take up the torch and run with his silly, fear-based arugments, then have at it.

 

[Coyote]

You like Pale's arguments because they're your kind of religious twaddle despite Pale's disingenuous denials. If you want to take up the torch and run with his silly, fear-based arugments, then have at it.

I'll supply the popcorn if you bring the beer.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

I'll supply the popcorn if you bring the beer.

As long as the popcorn isn't made with sheep grease like last time. That was nasty! I know coyotes like sheep grease, but not me--I'm a vegetarian. It will also be organic beer if that's okay with you.

 

[Coyote]

As long as the popcorn isn't made with sheep grease like last time. That was nasty! I know coyotes like sheep grease, but not me--I'm a vegetarian. It will also be organic beer if that's okay with you.

Picky picky picky. You are what you eat you know....sheep eat veggies. Therefor sheep is a vegetable.

I'll remember to pick the wool out though....

 

[arbitor]

so you beleive in god but youre not a christian. what is you religion exactly?

 

[Coyote]

It's undefined.

Exactly why is "athiesm" your enemy?

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

Picky picky picky. You are what you eat you know....sheep eat veggies. Therefor sheep is a vegetable.

I'll remember to pick the wool out though....

Follow that thought: if sheep is vegetable, then coyote is vegetable!

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

so you beleive in god but youre not a christian. what is you religion exactly?

One can have a relationship with one's Creator without codifying said relationship in terms that can be written on a discussion site. If you cannot imagine having an intimate, long-term relationship with the Being who created you without couching that relationship in organized religious terms, then you are lacking in imagination.

Muslims believe in God, they just call Him Allah and they have a name for their religion, Hindus believe in a Creator and have a name for their religion, but the American Indians believed in the Great Spirit, what religion are they? They didn't codify their beliefs into dogma that could be called by a single name.

 

[Mare Tranquillity]

so you beleive in god but youre not a christian. what is you religion exactly?

Why is gay marriage your enemy?