Islam And Its Truth

[Free Palestine]

About Mohammad .

Mohammad was a son whose father had died before his birth . His mother also died when he was 6 years old . His uncle ( Abu Taleb) took care of him, Mohammad worked as a shephered and sometimes in trade between Hijaz (KSA) and Sham (Middle East) with his uncle Abu Taleb .

Mohammad married (Khadija bent Khowaylid) and worked with her in Trade. Since his childhood , Mohammad was known in All Quraysh (his family) and all Mecca for his perfect ethics . He was know as ( the honest and the truthful). And Quraysh (Mohammad's family) was the most honorous family in Mecca.

Mohammad had many marks that let many of Christians and Jews who saw him to think that he was the coming prophet the Torah mentioned because all of the descriptions in Torah was matched by him .


Mohammad And Fetishes' Devotion.

During his life before being a messenger, Mohammad never believed in fetishes that were devoted by Arabs in Mecca . He believed (by logic) that those things had nothing to do , they can never help nor harm . Mohammad was used to go to (Heraa Cave) from time to time to think in the universe and the creator of it who can never be a fetish.


Mohammad And Prophecy.

During his presence in Heraa Cave and when he was 40 years old , Mohammad felt in a man begind him who shaked his shoulders and said : Read ! . Mohammad replied: I don't know reading ! . The man repeated it three times and Mohammad repeated the same reply every time , then the man said the first text in Quran which was :
اقرأ باسم ربك الذي خلق ، خلق الإنسان من علق ، اقرأ وربك الأكرم ، الذي علم بالقلم ، علم الإنسان ما لم يعلم
Quran ( Surah 96 : 1-5). Here is the translation :

Oh Mohammad read ! . Read by the name of your God who is the creator who created the man from sperm . Read that your God is the most honorous who taught the people to write and taught the man things that he never known .

This is my own translation , maybe you can find a better translation online.

After saying that , the man disappeared . Mohammad was very frightened and went to his home threatened from what happened to him . Khadija (his wife) had a christian relative , she went to him and asked him about what happened to her husband and he said : the man who came to Mohammad was the same who came to Moses and Jesus before , he is Gabriel . Go and tell Mohammad that he is the prophet of this nation .

Since that , Gabriel started coming to Mohammad from time to time to tell him about Islam and to teach him new parts of Quran .


A Very Very Brief Timeline.

Allah told Mohammad to go and tell the people about Islam and ask them to follow it . He was opposed by Mecca's people. People tried to kill him once , but Allah sent Gabriel and told him about it . Mohammad survived and left mecca to Medina with his friends and followers where the people believed in him and his followers were increasing day by day.

In Medina, Mohammad established the state of Islam. Three battles happened between Muslims and Mecca people , two of which muslims were the victorious . During his life in Medina, Gabiel continued coming to Mohammad to teach him Quran , and Islamic rules.

Finally, Mohammad decided to return to Mecca, he prepared his army and started way back to Mecca . He wanted to enter Mecca peacefully with no blood because Mecca is the Most holy place in Islam in which Islam forbids fighting. Mohammad achieved his goal and entered Mecca peacefully . All people followed him as he forgave them in spite of all harm they offered to him. They realised that there was a hidden power supporting him which is the God's power . He started as a one chased man , but ended in ruling Mecca and Medina ! and all the Arab Island later .

Since that , Mohammad started to expand his message. He sent to more and more places . Most places believed peacefully whereas some have killed the messengers of Mohammad and so the fight was needed .


Why Do We Believe Mohammad ?

Many people claims that Mohammad was not a true prophet. But all of us know that prophets had miracles and Mohammad was not an exception . Mohammad had many miracles that proved he was a real and a true prophet . The Quran was the most important miracle for him . Quran mentioned many historical events that happened before thousands of years before Mohammad , and Quran told the stories of many previous prophets which Arabs had never known before him . So how did Mohammad know about history and previous prophets ? Mohammad was neither a Jew nor a Christian and he didn't live among them , so the only way by which Mohammad knew about all that was angel Gbriel who was sent by God . This proves that Mohammad was a true prophet .

Mohammad also said expectations about future which he was told by the God . Many of them happened which again proves his prophecy .

Quran has some "scientific truthes" . Scientists discovered them in the last few decades where they were written in Quran before 1430 years which proves that Quran is from God and Not from Mohammad .


Important.

What I wrote here in this post is a very very brief info about Islam. If anyone is interested in details, please write your posts , your questions and any comments and I will reply by details -God willing - .

 

[dahermit]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Quran has some "scientific truthes" . Scientists discovered them in the last few decades where they were written in Quran before 1430 years which proves that Quran is from God and Not from Mohammad .

And these "scientific truthes", are?

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

And these "scientific truthes", are?

Threre are various topics in quran which relate to scientific issues such as creation of universe , origin and creation of Man, anatomy, pairs in sexes in plants and living things, water, mountains, sea, space and time, astronomy, etc. It will take some time to discuss them all. I just quote a verse for example. you might find some of you need in the many sites which have discussed them, like this one:
http://www.islam-guide.com/

21:30 Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?

 

[bododie]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

LET US ALL CONDEMN THE REAL TERRORIST WHICH IS " ISRAEL

So it's O.K. for you to condemn an entire OTHER people whom God also gave the gift of life to because Gabriel talked to Mohammad?

REALLY??????

I have no great love for Israeli political policies, but don't speak in terms of anhilation of an entire people like Moslems do. I do what a decent human being does, and reserve that right for God. You want to tell all of us what gives you that right? You want to prove that it came from God for me please?

Do you condemn the lives of innocent children that just happened to be born there and influenced by what they KNOW is right just as much you think YOU know what is right?

I have a question for Islam: Why do Moslems invoke a right to condemn, that only God deserves, and certainly not ANY imperfect human being. You speak of Israel as a force, as I suspect you consider ANY people who do not believe as you do. Are you so much more intelligent and moral that you feel you have a right over another human beings existence because you are a Moslem???

Do you aver without debate that God thinks so too? Do you really believe that those Moslems who have killed other innocent Moslem children in the name of their "sect" of Islam will be smiled upon by God? I really want to know the answer to that question if nothing else?

Are you aware that the world has changed a great deal since the time of Mohammad? At least it has outside of Yemen, Syria and all of the "stans".

Tell me what you think of Afghani's chanting "death to America" which involves death to American CHILDREN, because some equally "faith based" nut wanted to burn Qurans. Did Mohammad not tell his followers to have pride and dignity and not take aid from those whom they consider their enemies? Someone should.

I understand your convictions to your faith. However, if Moslems do not stand up before the world and condemn those who kill other innocent Moslems along with anybody else they decide they don't like that particular day, then don't complain when you are all bunched together as supporting that ideology. At least Christians publicly condemn those who "tweak" the message of that faith to suit their own twisted interpretation.


Moslems chant death to Israel, death to America. I just pray that the day come that a Suni child won't have to worry about the Shia one trying to kill him and visa versa.

 

[dogtowner]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Jesus loves you, allah wants you dead. Pretty simple.

 

[nobull]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

This is what I think about Muhammed/Islam and you can decide whether I'm "vilifying" thim.

But, remember, to "vilify" someone, what you say has to be untrue. It's not vilification if it's the truth.

I am just a guy on a message board reporting on what I have found. I know a few people here would like to think I'm advocating hatred, but I'm not. They just don't like what I have to say, that's all. Well, life is rough all around, I guess. Personally, I think Christ got it right, and he transcended hatred. I, on the other hand, am just an imperfect, unenlightened sinner, but I do deeply believe that the truth will set you free, so that's my quest. Pretty simple, really.

So, as for what I have to say about Muhammed, don't anyone take my word for it. Please, do your own DD, and then tell me what part of this is untrue....

First, Muhammed was a war-monger.

Second, for a prophet, he didn t have much of a clue, to wit: When Jabril appeared to him, he thought it was the jinn, which were the Arab pagan gods (or demi-gods - whatever). What kind of prophet doesn't even recognize when God is talking to him? Moreover, he didn't even understand who Abraham, Moses and Jesus were until the Jews explained it to him. Yet he claims Islam is intended to set the record straight, because the Jews and Christians got it all wrong. How can that be if he didn't have any clue about the people he was talking about and had to rely on the Jews to help him interpret what God was telling him?

Third, in "reciting" the Koran, he promulgated, if you will, thousands of very repetitive verses that fall into two basic categories: warnings as to what will happen to the unbelievers; and instructions on what to say to the Christians and Jews. But, he didn't separate them, as two distinct themes. Rather, he intertwined these verses, so that they alternate. That maximizes the chance of blurring the distinctions, and maximizes the chance of confusing the Christians and the Jews with the unbelievers. And, clearly, that is exactly what has happened. But, if these two sets of ideas were intended to be distinct and different, then why not either say so or separate them? That's no accident, because this technique is repeated over and over and over throughout the Koran. By so-doing, it creates a tone - an impression - that is anti-Judeo-Christian without explicitly saying so. As a form of political brainwashing, it's truly ingenious.

Fourth, the Koran deconstructs both Judaism and Christianity. It does not deconstruct the "self" (i.e., the "believer"). This is why there has never been any real, serious exegesis of the Koran in 1,300 years. (In contrast, Christianity entered modernity when the Reformation brought about a new, critical deconstruction.) But, the Koran simply does not lend itself to it, because it eschews introspection. The greater emphasis is placed on condemning others. And this is yet another reason why there is virtually no criticism or questioning of the Koran: the downside risk of being labeled an "unbeliever" is too severe. And infidels, of course, are dealt with harshly. Consequently, the substance and tone of the Koran tend to operate to encourage people to point fingers at everyone else, lest someone point fingers at them first. IMO, what you see in the Islamic world today is the natural by-product of this kind of thinking, and it all came out of the mouth of Muhammed.

Fifth, the Koran is only part of a wider body of literature, known as hadith, that is based on what Muhammed said and did. When you look at the hadith, you see all the violence - you see all the references to jihad fi sabil Illah (jihad in the path of God) that are clearly military efforts, and not merely the more innocuous version of jihad, i.e.,"striving" (though, even striving, it turns out, is not completely innocuous, but I'll omit that discussion here). So, here you have Muhammed characterizing his battles against others as jihad in the path of God. What more need I say? In the aftermath of 9/11, you see the Islamic world trying to play down the non-Koranic hadith (in statements for western consumption, that is) because it's not pretty. But, go check out the hadith for yourself, and then ask whether I am vilifying Muhammed. He did it all to himself. I'm just the messenger.

Sixth, the Koran and hadith, as I'm sure everyone realizes by now, is also a political blueprint. It comes with its own set of laws, known as Sharia, which includes some barbaric punishments. It also devotes a good amount of attention to the who, what, when, where and why of waging war. The world is divided into two camps: Dar al-Islam (House of Islam) and Dar al-Harb (House of War). All lands that are ruled according to Muslim law are Dar al-Islam and all lands ruled by anyone else (e.g., the U.S.) are Dar al-Harb. This is Muhammed's grand and enlightened world view. You might want to contrast that with the teachings of Christ or Buddha. But, because the Koran is also a political/legal document, you can go pick up a Muslim newspaper here in the U.S. and read for yourselves the ongoing discussions about whether Muslims should accept the U.S. Constitution only conditionally, and only to the extent that it conforms to the Koran. Read these discussions for yourselves; I have.

Seventh, the Koran, ontologically, incorporates a notion of "justice for this physical plane of reality. But, I would suggest to you that it is justice without mercy. Read the Koran and hadith for yourselves, and decide for yourselves how much mercy is contained in it. I think it is merciless. But, if you think about it, we wouldn't need justice at all if we all had mercy. Now, granted, both are ideals that we strive for in an imperfect world, and we don't achieve either with anything close to perfection. However, that does not change the fact that one of those ideals is "higher" than the other. If we had mercy, we would not need justice. But, note how the converse is not true: if we have justice, we still need mercy. ( And earthly power doth then show likest God s, when Mercy seasons Justice. - The Merchant of Venice)

The fact that mercy is not achieved with perfection is not a justification for abandoning mercy in favor of justice, because justice can not be achieved with perfection either. So, in abandoning mercy in favor of justice, all we have really done is abandoned a higher ideal for a lesser one. The world will still be imperfect, only now it is pursuing a lesser ideal. That is clearly an inferior ontology. Anyway, Christ preached mercy, but Muhammed derogates mercy in favor of justice - when he's not busy fighting wars, that is.

I'll finish with a few thoughts and some of my own conclusions:

I have a friend and he is a Muslim. As I was giving him a ride home, we were talking about the Iraq situation, and had an interesting and friendly discussion. He's a nice guy, and all that. And I guess one would say he has a lot of "western" values. He believes in God, but isn't very religious, and most of his friends here in the U.S. are not Muslim. But, the fact is that he's a hell of a lot more enlightened that Muhammed ever was. And, I know he's not the only one, but I would have to say the same thing about other Muslims like him - they are all far more enlightened than Muhammed, and more enlightened than the Koran itself. So both my friend and I are sort of in the same boat - we both are more enlightened than Muhammed, and we both are less enlightened than Christ. More power to anyone who seeks enlightenment, but you won't find it in the life of Muhammed, because we've already surpassed him, and that includes my friend.

To put it another way, based on my reading of the Koran, hadith, and the life of Muhammed, I don't think the militant extremists are the ones who have corrupted the Koran. I think they have it exactly right. I think it's the Muslims, like my friend those who actually believe in getting along with others - who have "corrupted" the Koran. I applaud them for doing it, obviously. It warms my heart to see the Kurds in northern Iraq creating such a civilized community for themselves amidst all the surrounding violence and turmoil, and despite all that has been done to them. I applaud all of that. But, Muhammed wouldn't applaud it, so let's just be clear about that. And that is what makes Islam dangerous: the closer you get to its core - the closer you get to the hadith and to Muhammed - the more dangerous it gets. Yet, this enduring seed is impenetrable. It's like trying to get rid of a wart; you can try to get rid of the dead skin and the "growth," but until you drill down and get that virus that's at the root, it keeps coming back.

There's an expression: the problem with communism is communism, but the problem with capitalism is capitalists. Whether you agree with that or not, the point it is trying to make is that, with communism, it is the idea itself that is flawed; with capitalism, on the other hand, it's not the idea that is flawed, but the way it is practiced. (Again, I'm not interested in anyone arguing about whether that's true; the point is to see the kind of distinction being drawn.) Well, I would say the same thing about Islam and Christianity: the problem with Islam is Islam, and the problem with Christianity is Christians. In other words, Christianity would be a really great thing if people actually emulated Christ, but they don t always. But, for all the peace-loving Muslims out there (and I don't deny they are out there) who believe in religious tolerance, and love and compassion even for non-Muslims - for all of them, Muhammed is not someone to be emulated, but, rather, someone who must be overcome. I do agree that there is an important epistemological distinction that must be made..but to bring the two together, Christians need to uncover Christ, while Muslims need to bury Muhammed.

Regards
Doug

 

[Pandora]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

This is what I think about Muhammed/Islam and you can decide whether I'm "vilifying" thim.

But, remember, to "vilify" someone, what you say has to be untrue. It's not vilification if it's the truth.

I am just a guy on a message board reporting on what I have found. I know a few people here would like to think I'm advocating hatred, but I'm not. They just don't like what I have to say, that's all. Well, life is rough all around, I guess. Personally, I think Christ got it right, and he transcended hatred. I, on the other hand, am just an imperfect, unenlightened sinner, but I do deeply believe that the truth will set you free, so that's my quest. Pretty simple, really.

So, as for what I have to say about Muhammed, don't anyone take my word for it. Please, do your own DD, and then tell me what part of this is untrue....

That was one long post but well worth reading. I am impressed at how much you knew. I am not sure if anyone here knew about the Hadith. I agree with you that in many ways its more important because it tells you who Muhammed was.

By the way, Welcome to the HOP

 

[Gipper]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Nice post.

You will find that some people do not know that Islam is much more than a religion. There are posters here at the HOP who do not know this. I suspect many Americans do not know the truth about Islam.

And, what do say about our current president and his predecessor when they claim Islam is a religion of peace or we are not at war with Islam?

 

[steveox]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

 

[nobull]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Thanks for the accolades...It was longer...lol

best regards
doug

 

[nobull]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Took a peak at the census data and I was a little taken back..it only showed a little over a million Arabs here. . . . but the Census does not ask about religion.

The conventional wisdom is that, in the U.S., most Muslims are not Arabs and most Arabs are not Muslims. The former is definitely true: most Muslims in the U.S. are not Arabs, most are black (though most blacks are Christian).

As for the latter (that most Arabs are not Muslims), that was true once, but I don't know if it still is. At one point, a significant fraction of the Arab population here was Lebanese, and most of them were Christian (note the high percentage of Christians in Lebanon in the CIA factbook). So, that is largely why it was true that most Arabs in the U.S. were Christian. My guess would be that that is still true, but I can't be certain. (Note that the arrival of Iranians and Pakistanis in the U.S. doesn't affect the ratio, because neither are Arabs.)

Digression #1: Regarding black Muslims, did you know that some of them are descendants of black Muslim slaves that were brought here from Africa? But, the majority either immigrated or converted (as opposed to being kidnapped).

Sub-Digression #1.1: The "Nation of Islam" (comprised of blacks), is not considered Islam by the rest of the Muslim world. For one thing, the Nation of Islam's myth of "Dr. Yakub" is viewed as clearly pagan by Muslims and has no basis in the Koran.

Sub-Sub-Digression #1.1.1: Malcolm X was a member of the Nation of Islam (NOI), but he took issue with some of Elijah Muhammed's practices and openly questioned him (Elijah Muhammed had some Roman Polansky tendencies, if you know what I mean). Then, after his trip to Mecca, Malcolm X's views changed even more, putting him even more at odds with the NOI, and it was not long after that that he was assassinated. And most people say the assassination was ordered by people within the NOI. In many ways, I think Malcolm X was as great a leader as MLK, but in a different way. Malcolm X, IMO, is a study in transformation, and in the triumph of reason and clarity over emotion and the mindless adherence to unexamined beliefs. Too much transformation for the NOI to handle.

Sub-Sub-Digression #1.1.2: The leader of NOI today is Louis Farrakhan. If you've never heard the speech he gave at the Million Man March, it is well worth a listen for its entertainment value. It is incomparable in its unfettered wackiness, with its numerology and exegesis of the word "atonement." He's no Malcolm X, and he's definitely no MLK.

And he's also not a "Muslim" according to the rest of the Muslim world, though some factions would no doubt like to enlist the NOI for terrorist purposes.

Sub-Sub-Digression #1.1.3: The DC sniper John Allen Muhammed was a NOI follower.

...End of Digressions...

Then there is the question as to how many Muslims are in the U.S. No one really knows, and the estimates have been very controversial. The estimates range from about 3 million to over 7 million. The most extensive study was a telephone survey of 50,000 people conducted by the Community College of NY. After revising their estimates upward to account for their margin of error, they arrived at a number somewhere around 3-3.5 million. If you know your stats, you know that 50,000 is an extremely large sample, but I can't tell you whether it has any biases, etc. Various Muslim interest groups say the true number is at least 7 million, and this is a very contentious debate. Their estimates are based in part on surveys of mosques, and also on some extrapolative guesstimates. But the mosque data is heavily skewed by two particular mosques that claim something like 50,000 people affiliated with them, and there is also the possibility of people associated with more than one mosque. Anyway, if you look around, you'll see lots of debate over what the best estimates really are.

 

[zakiyeh]

Re: Islam And Its Truth .

Second, for a prophet, he didn t have much of a clue, to wit: When Jabril appeared to him, he thought it was the jinn, which were the Arab pagan gods (or demi-gods - whatever). What kind of prophet doesn't even recognize when God is talking to him?

It would have been fair if you mentioned where you got your information. I am a Muslim and have been familiar with Quran since I was a kid and have read throughout Quran at least five times from beginning to end other than much more selective reading. Putting aside your judgments based on your information, I doubt your facts themselves.
What you said about Muhammad (pbuh) thinking that it was a jinn who talked to him is rejected by most of the famous interpreters of Quran. I don't know where you got it but this illusion might have came from the verses which tell Muhammad that you are not majnun, (taken from the word jinn). Much more verses like this are addressed to the non-believers telling them that Muhammad was not majnun. Putting aside the fact that Jinn were not Gods but some other kind of creation which is invisible to human eyes, the word majnun which literally mean one who is affected by jinn is applied to whom is concerned as mad and therefore whose words are not taken as serious. This label was what the unbelievers put on Muhammad, and God trying to sympathise him and remind him of his kindness to him tells him that:
"ma anta bene'mate rabbeka bemajnun" (68:2)
Which is translated as:
Abdul Daryabadi : Thou art nor, through the grace of thy Lord, mad.
Dr. Mohsin : You (O Muhammad SAW) are not, by the Grace of your Lord, a madman
Pickthal : Thou art not, for thy Lord's favour unto thee, a madman.
Yusuf Ali : Thou art not, by the grace of thy Lord, mad or possessed.

Moreover, he didn't even understand who Abraham, Moses and Jesus were until the Jews explained it to him. Yet he claims Islam is intended to set the record straight, because the Jews and Christians got it all wrong. How can that be if he didn't have any clue about the people he was talking about and had to rely on the Jews to help him interpret what God was telling him?

It might be true that Muhammad didn't know much about the stories of the predecessor prophets and their followers (Not that he didn't knew who they were at all, because afterall he worshippes the same God they worshipped before he became a prophet), but it's not true that he took his information from the Jews and Christians. He got them straight from Allah. This includes the story of what has happened and also the corrections of the wrong thoughts about Moses and Jesus and their religion. However, obviously this is not contradictory with Muhammad talking to Jews about the details of what they believe, if he ever has. There are many verses in Quran about Moses and Jesus and their followers throughout the Quran and there is a whole surah called Maryam which is about Mary and Jesus, as well as other surah's like the second one, ale-imran which has a main part about them and about Christianity.
Some witness for my words is the following:
Verses about Mary when she was sent to the temple as a child:
"This is of the tidings of things hidden which We reveal unto thee and thou wast not with them when they cast their reeds as to which of them should take care of Maryam, nor wast thou with them when they disputed." (3: 44)
Similar verses like the ones about the story of Joseph which there is a whole surah on it:
"We! We recount unto thee the best of stories, by Revealing unto thee this Ouran, although thou wast before that of the unaware ones." (12:3)
"This is of the tidings of the unseen, which We reveal unto thee; nor wast thou with them when they resolved on their affair while they were plotting." (12:102)
Or after telling the story of Noah:
"That is of the stories of the unseen: We Reveal it unto thee: thou knewest it not, nor thy nation knew it ere this. So be thou patient; verily the happy end is for the God-fearing." (11:49)

Third, in "reciting" the Koran, he promulgated, if you will, thousands of very repetitive verses that fall into two basic categories: warnings as to what will happen to the unbelievers; and instructions on what to say to the Christians and Jews. But, he didn't separate them, as two distinct themes. Rather, he intertwined these verses, so that they alternate. That maximizes the chance of blurring the distinctions, and maximizes the chance of confusing the Christians and the Jews with the unbelievers. And, clearly, that is exactly what has happened.

Muhammad neither chose to repeat or to arrange the verses in any order he liked. The Quran was sent twice; once as a whole at the time he was in the cave, to his heart, and the second time gradually during different occasions throughout his life. The order of the present Quran is different from the order of the revelations and is arranged after Muhammad's death. Although the order of most verses is actually the same as the one of the revelation.
But to talk about the distinctions of these two (Christians and Jews with unbelievers) is another subject which really needs to read the Quran itself and hear its own word about it and the reasons for it. Quran says that many Jews and Christians were aware of a prophet coming after Jesus by what has been told in their book which has been changed and when Muhammad came with the Quran and they saw the signs they knew he was the one, but still they denied him. Lets have a look at these verses for example:

"And when there came unto them a Book from before Allah confirming that which was with them, --and afore they were entreating God for victory over these who disbelieved, -then when there came unto them that which they recognised. they disbelieved therein wherefore Allahs curse be on the infidels!" (2:89)
***
"- Verily the religion with Allah is Islam and those Who Were vouchsafed the Book differed Not save after the knowledge had come unto them, out of spite among themselves. And whosoever disbelieveth in the revelations of Allah, then verily Allah swift at reckoning.
- Wherefore if they contend with thee, say thou: have surrendered myself unto Allah and he who followeth me. And say thou unto those who have been vouchsafed the Book and unto the illiterates; do you (also) accept Islam? Then if they accept Islam, they are of a surety guided; and if they turn away, then upon thee is only the preaching, and Allah is Beholder of His bondsmen." (3: 19-20)
***
" - Say thou: we believe in Allah and in that which is sent down unto us, and that which was sent down unto Ibrahim and Ismail and Is-haq and Yaqub and the tribes, and that which was vouchsafed unto Musa and Isa and other prophets from their Lord: we differentiate not between any of them, and unto Him we are submistive.
- And whosoever will seek a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted of Him, and he shall be of the losers in the Hereafter.
- How shall Allah guide a people who disbelieved after their belief and after they bore witness that the apostle was true and after evidences had come unto them! And Allah guideth not a wrong-doing people.
- These! their meed is that on them shall be the curse of Allah and of angles and of mankind, all;
- Abiders therein, their torment shall not be lightened nor shall they be respited.
- Save such shall repent thereafter and amend; verily Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." (3:84-89)

Well I guess it got too long. I'll try to talk about the other parts of your thoughts in another post.

 

[nobull]

zak..Did I get it wrong? Because I don't think so..
regards
doug

 

[zakiyeh]

Maybe I should talk more about the view of Quran on other religions and its views about jihad.
I once quoted some verses from the Quran indicating that what Muhammad brought as Islam was the same, but completed and perfected of what Abraham, Moses and Jesus said. (here's the link to the post:https://www.houseofpolitics.com/forum/sho...6&postcount=68)
The fact is that the Quran sees them all as one religion and calls it Islam, as it calls Abraham as a Muslim:

"Ibrahim was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true hanif muslim, (who surrendered to Allah), and he was not of those who ascribe partners with Allah (the polytheists)." (3:67)

The word "hanif" refers to one who is monotheist and worships none but Allah Alone. The word "Islam" literally means surrender and it indicates surrendering to God, i.e. Allah. The problem then remains with the followers of these prophets and their deviation from truth. Of course there are verses which don't address the good-hearted Jews and Christians condemningly, and names them besides the believers,like his one:

"Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, [] whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (2:62)

So, the problem is with the ones who know the truth and deny it on purpose.

There are verses that order the prophet and Muslims to fight with the unbelievers, as well as the one's which tell Muhammad to leave them to God to judge. There might be some sects of Muslims which relying merely and literally on Quran, take some of the Jihad verses as valid in any occasion, and there might also be some Muslims that might say those verses were only for the time of Muhammad and are not valid today. The Shi'a which believes the only true interpretation of the Quran is at the hand of the Imam of time, believes that Jihad can only take place by the Imam's order (However this is different from fighting in defense, which is allowed in absence of Imam too). Shi'a believes in 12 Imams which are believed to be immaculate, i.e. pure from mistake and sin like the prophet and so whose words are reliable. Imam Mahdi, is the present Imam which is alive, but absent and unknown and is believed to come with Jesus and fill the earth with peace and justice as it is filled with cruelty and injustice.

the Koran is only part of a wider body of literature, known as hadith, that is based on what Muhammed said and did. When you look at the hadith, you see all the violence - you see all the references to jihad fi sabil Illah (jihad in the path of God) that are clearly military efforts, and not merely the more innocuous version of jihad, i.e.,"striving"
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Koran and hadith, as I'm sure everyone realizes by now, is also a political blueprint. It comes with its own set of laws, known as Sharia, which includes some barbaric punishments. It also devotes a good amount of attention to the who, what, when, where and why of waging war.

Although Shi'a believes that Imam is the only true interpreter of Quran, they do use the Quran, along with Hadith, which is the words of the Imams and the Prophet, by the science of Fighh to find the word of God for newborn issues and new situations of time and place, which itself is based on a hadith which tells them to do so at the time of absence of the Imam. This work, of course needs special training which is gained through special schools and the ones who do this work are called faghih. Shari'a is the set of laws drawn by Quran and Hadith including individual (such as the manner of prayer and fasting,etc) and social issues (such as giving zakat, which is giving money to the poor and trading rules, and punishments for murder, theft, etc) and bears a much wider field of subjects, which jihad is one of them, so reducing Shari'a to a set of punishments and war issues isn't right. Calling the punishments barbaric is another issue which needs to be discussed separately!
So it is not that you can take a hadith and carry on acting on it without bearing in mind the situation and terms of time and place (at least it's not the case in Shi'a). Of course the situation of Muhammad with all his enemies and all the torture he and the new Muslims went through for their beliefs needs to be born in mind before judging him for the wars. A study on fights and wars he went through separately and their causes can also be helpful.

If we had mercy, we would not need justice.

Justice is a step towards mercy. If you can't turn cruelty to mercy by words and advice, you have to fight with it. What can you call fighting one who is cruel to human beings and ignores human rights and only thinks of his own benefits anything but mercy for the innocent!

 

[nobull]

zak..I understand where you are coming from...But I have to ask am I right or am I wrong?

best regards
doug