Is a Human Zygote an Organism?

[palerider]

After researching all this information, thanks to you, I have come to understand that life doesn't begin within every person. It began when God put life within the breath of the creature He formed in or before Creation Week day 3, in what I believe to have later became The Garden Of Eden for adam and animals. The seed and egg just recycles the life that God has given us humans. A circle of life.

Genesis 2:4
Adam and Eve
5 bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprung up—for the LordGod had not caused it to rain on the land, and there was no man to work the ground, 6 or was going up from the land and was watering the whole face of the ground—7 dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature. 8 garden in Eden, in the east, and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9 The tree of life was in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

So when the biological argument fails, you turn to faith as if that was an adequate denial of the facts. The fact is that your life began at the point that the fertilization of your mother's egg was complete...you can trace your life back that far and no further...perhaps you existed as a spirit in a giant gum ball machine and when fertilization of that egg was complete, you dropped out of the big machine and into that zygote...but that period in the gumball machine was not life....Your life began at the zygote stage and everything that has come after has been growth and development.

Denying the facts doesn't alter the facts...and your choice of scripture in no way supports your claim. We were created as biological creatures and biology is the explanation of our cycle of life....and the more biology we learn...the more clear it becomes that we are human beings from the time we are conceived....we come into being as human beings and then proceed with growth and development.

 

[dogtowner]

So when the biological argument fails, you turn to faith as if that was an adequate denial of the facts. The fact is that your life began at the point that the fertilization of your mother's egg was complete...you can trace your life back that far and no further...perhaps you existed as a spirit in a giant gum ball machine and when fertilization of that egg was complete, you dropped out of the big machine and into that zygote...but that period in the gumball machine was not life....Your life began at the zygote stage and everything that has come after has been growth and development.

Denying the facts doesn't alter the facts...and your choice of scripture in no way supports your claim. We were created as biological creatures and biology is the explanation of our cycle of life....and the more biology we learn...the more clear it becomes that we are human beings from the time we are conceived....we come into being as human beings and then proceed with growth and development.

Unique human beings I might add. I find that significant. Even twins have slight differences.

 

[noday8]

I am attempting to have a real discussion with you and all you do is judge everything I say like I am attempting to be this great manipulato or something. Lol. You are a real trip. No hard feelings though. I am beginning to truly believe you are just in character or something. This profile is like your alter ego.

I have to go now. I will be back to point out how biology fission is not what happens with a human Zygote. Words mean something so you should look it up again. Also, you are grabbing for any meaning of organism and saying a human zygote falls under one of those but in actuality it does not fall under the biological definition of organism in a biology dictionary. Prove it if it does. I linked biologydictionary.org so you can link your biology dictionary site of reference.

Also, your obsession with metamorphosis is odd since species that go through it don't change species and that was one of your other weak arguments that a zygote cell is a human cell so it equates to being a human person since its dna is totally unique although there is a possibility of twins, triplets and quads.

Well, I really gotta go. Nice chatting with you. You are an interesting being.

 

[noday8]

Unique human beings I might add. I find that significant. Even twins have slight differences.

Twins have differences through different nutrients or from different sacks. They start with the same dna when they first divide. The later the split means less difference between the two because they can share the same placenta and even the same sack.

 

[palerider]

Unique human beings I might add. I find that significant. Even twins have slight differences.

The whole unique business arose from pro choice types trying to claim that the child was somehow part of its mother's body...even if the children are identical in every way they still are not part of their mother's body like some sort of tumor which is what the pro choicers tried to claim.

 

[palerider]

I am attempting to have a real discussion with you and all you do is judge everything I say like I am attempting to be this great manipulato or something. Lol.

That's what passive aggressives do. No surprise there.

I have to go now. I will be back to point out how biology fission is not what happens with a human Zygote.

You might be back to point out why you don't believe....or can't accept that fission is what happens....again no surprise there.

Words mean something so you should look it up again. Also, you are grabbing for any meaning of organism and saying a human zygote falls under one of those but in actuality it does not fall under the biological definition of organism in a biology dictionary. Prove it if it does. I linked biologydictionary.org so you can link your biology dictionary site of reference.

Of course it does....by your misunderstanding of the definition of life no single celled organism could be called alive.

Also, your obsession with metamorphosis is odd since species that go through it don't change species and that was one of your other weak arguments that a zygote cell is a human cell so it equates to being a human person since its dna is totally unique although there is a possibility of twins, triplets and quads.

You are conflating metamorphosis with growth and development.

Well, I really gotta go. Nice chatting with you. You are an interesting being.

Sorry I can't say the same....you aren't.

 

[palerider]

That's what passive aggressives do. No surprise there.



You might be back to point out why you don't believe....or can't accept that fission is what happens....again no surprise there.



Of course it does....by your misunderstanding of the definition of life no single celled organism could be called alive.



You are conflating metamorphosis with growth and development.



Sorry I can't say the same....you aren't.

 

[noday8]

You might be back to point out why you don't believe....or can't accept that fission is what happens....again no surprise there.

https://www.google.com/url?q=http:/...ds-cse&usg=AFQjCNF3kcRLJrxS5sKhMGb74TO84YaKWg

Fission
Fission

a type of cell division in which overall (i.e., not localised) cell growth is followed by septum formation which typically divides the fully grown cell into two similar oridentical cells.

Fission:This is the division of the parent body into two or more daughter individuals identical to the parent.

Cleavage
Definition

noun

(embryology) The repeated division of a fertilized ovum, producing a cluster of cells with the same size as the original zygote. . (4) (chemistry) The splitting of a large or complex molecule into smaller or simpler molecules.



Supplement

In embryology, cleavage is the first stage of embryogenesis. It pertains to the repeated mitotic division of a zygote into blastomeres that cluster to a compact mass called morula. Cleavage continues until blastula is formed. The various types of cleavage are:

In the first image the 2 daughter cells are exact copies of the mother cell. In fission the mother cell grows then divides.

In the second image the 2 daughter cells are not copies but gets half of what the mother cell had after the mother cell goes through a complex process of replicating its chromosomes. In embryonic cleavage the original cell does not grow but each generation of cells get smaller and smaller within a cluster.

 

[palerider]

Fission:This is the division of the parent body into two or more daughter individuals identical to the parent.

Again....shallow depth of knowledge in the field of biology prevents you from actually understanding what you are googling....ignorance cripples the ability to think critically.


Here....from the Oxford University Ethics Department"

http://www.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/28157/Cloning_Ethics.pdf

Methods of cloning

The genome of a cloned cell is a near-identical copy of that of its parent or ‘progenitor’ cell. There are two methods of genome cloning – fission and fusion.

Cloning by fission

• Blastocyst division – twinning is inducedin an early embryo (blastocyst) by the application of heat or mechanical stress. The blastocyst splits in two, and the two halves continue to grow into complete embryos. At most, two identical embryos can be created using this method.
  
  
• Blastomere separation – the coating of the blastocyst is removed and the cells (blastomeres) are placed in a solution that separates them. Each of these blastomeres is undifferentiated and can grow into an embryo. This technique can produce eight embryos at most, but can be repeated with each new embryo to produce a larger number of cloned embryos.

• 
  
  Do explain how the process is fission when it is done in a lab but not fission when it happens naturally and show precise definitions for the two separate situations....by the way....did you notice that they apply a stimulus and in turn, get a reaction?
  
  From Science Direct
  
  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1357303906001678
  

Cloning by fissionBlastocyst division – twinning is induced in an early embryo (blastocyst) by the application of heat or mechanical stress.

Maybe you prefer a religious source....how about the Vatican

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p..._family_doc_20030808_cloning-trujillo_en.html

Also known as "cloning" (or "semi-cloning" or other such terms) are broader and less appropriate techniques of asexual and agametic reproduction that in some ways resemble nuclear transfer, especially because of the results they obtain: a genetically identical descendence. These include techniques such as artificial parthenogenesis or embryonic fission.....

7) Embryonic fission consists in the separation from the embryo of a few cells, in such a way that a complete adult develops from each of the resulting separated cells, complete with the same genetic heritage......

8) The totipotentiality of a cell consists in its ability to generate all the cells and tissues of a complete organism, including (if satisfactory circumstances exist) the development of an individual. In the human, each embryonic cell remains totipotent for a few days after fertilization. Homozygous germination (the phenomenon of identical twins) is the result of an incidental embronic fission of the totipotent cells that make up the embryo in the first stages of its development

Here...from the US government reference the cloning ban laws

http://lobby.la.psu.edu/_107th/121_Human_Cloning/Organizational_Statements/ALL/ALL_comments_01.htm

The fact that this bill only bans one method of human cloning (as "cloning" is formally defined in your definitions), i.e., only the "somatic cell nuclear transplant" method of human cloning, it thereby allows all other methods of human cloning -- both "therapeutic" and "reproductive", in the private and the public sectors, using both private and public funds. That is, it would allow the cloning of human beings by such methods of cloning as "parthenogenesis", and "embryo splitting" -- i.e. "blastomere separation", "blastocyst splitting", or "fission", also referred to as "embryo multiplication".5 These are forms of cloning as well as forms of human embryo research . Since IVF-produced human embryos are usually implanted or frozen at the 2-to 16-cell stage of human embryonic development,6 they would be prime candidates for the cloning of human beings by means of "embryo multiplication", i.e., human cloning.

1. This definition of cloning only refers to one -- of several -- methods of cloning, i.e., "somatic cell nuclear transfer." However, there are several other methods of cloning, or making "copies" of human beings, e.g., embryo splitting (e.g., "blastomere separation", "blastocyst splitting", "fission", etc.), parthenogenesis, etc. Therefore, this bill would not apply to nor ban those other methods of cloning human beings. Therefore this bill does not ban all cloning of human beings, in the private or public sectors, using private or public funds, for "therapeutic" or "reproductive" purposes.

1. As this clause states, and is commonly understood, if the legislative language is "silent" on an issue, then the bill does not cover it. In this specific case, because the bill is "silent" on all other forms of cloning other than somatic cell nuclear transfer, and because "somatic cell" is scientifically misdefined, and because there is virtually no mention of human germ-line cells, this bill would not ban all other forms of human cloning, nor would it cover the cloning of germ-line cells to produce human beings, even using all forms of cloning, nor does this bill ban the recovery of human germ-line cells from living or dead human beings for purposes of cloning human beings, nor does it ban the cloning of human beings by means of embryo splitting (e.g., "blastomere separation", "blastocyst splitting", "fission", etc.). Therefore, "therapeutic" and "reproductive" cloning of human beings are not banned by this bill, using any method of cloning, in the private or the public sectors, using private or public funds.

I could go on all day with such references...

The fact is that for a short period of time, human beings are capable of asexual reproduction...and it is in fact called fission...accept or not, it makes no difference. Denial of the facts does not alter the facts.

 

[noday8]

Where is your biology reference? I asked specifically for a biology reference. I couldn't even view anything in that Science direct link. Politicians and the Catholic church???

Again....shallow depth of knowledge in the field of biology prevents you from actually understanding what you are googling....ignorance cripples the ability to think critically.


Here....from the Oxford University Ethics Department"

http://www.practicalethics.ox.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0005/28157/Cloning_Ethics.pdf

Your deceptive colors are showing. The author of that "biological fission report" is a philosopher. Now I know that it is not that you just lack the sight for knowledge, it is that you intentionally ignore it. "Oxford University Ethics Department"??? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...1FsgbP&usg=AFQjCNGjMAbZxY8yFATWuc6maumrnPHo3Q

 

[noday8]

Your science direct link has the same author that your Oxford University Ethics Department link has. He is a philosopher. Julian Savulescu. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...1FsgbP&usg=AFQjCNGjMAbZxY8yFATWuc6maumrnPHo3Q

 

[palerider]

Where is your biology reference? I asked specifically for a biology reference. I couldn't even view anything in that Science direct link. Politicians and the Catholic church???

I gave you across the board references....the only one denying the facts is you...but if you want more...sure.

Multiple Pregnancy: Epidemiology, Gestation, and Perinatal Outcome

"...subsequently the implanted embryo undergoes binary fission two then to four MZ embryos"

There are plenty of other BOOKS on the topic of cloning that describe the splitting of blastocysts and zygotes as fission as that is what the process it called...feel free to explore the topic or deny as you wish....I am not going to go about doing your research for you. If you believe the references I provided simply made up the biological references to fission they mentioned then by all means prove it....disregarding information as untrue simply based on the source is.......wait for it.....yet another logical fallacy...how utterly unsurprising.

Your deceptive colors are showing. The author of that "biological fission report" is a philosopher.

And you believe a philosopher can't possess biological knowledge? What is your specific education that allows you to disregard what he has to say? Your claim is just another logical fallacy on your part.

Now I know that it is not that you just lack the sight for knowledge, it is that you intentionally ignore it. "Oxford University Ethics Department"??? https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...1FsgbP&usg=AFQjCNGjMAbZxY8yFATWuc6maumrnPHo3Q

Do you have any idea what sort of education a bio ethicist must have...especially to be in the employ of an institution such as Oxford? Do try to learn something.

If all you can muster is one logical fallacy after another why not just quit? They don't represent any sort of argument and do nothing but highlight your lack of knowledge.

 

[noday8]

Reference the work and research of a biologist. Or find a biology dictionary that defines the words the way that you use them. That is what I have been asking from you. I do not want to hear the opinions of a philosopher, theologian nor a politician about biology.

 

[noday8]

Do explain how the process is fission when it is done in a lab but not fission when it happens naturally and show precise definitions for the two separate situations....by the way....did you notice that they apply a stimulus and in turn, get a reaction?

You can heat a bag of marbles or cut it and it will open for you then the marbles within it will come out. Lol. Just playing.

The way you explain reaction to stimuli does not seem scientific. That is why I want you to reference the work of biological scientists.

 

[noday8]

Can't find a biologist that calls a cluster of human proembryo cells that are dividing within the process of cleavage described as fission when a twinning event happens nor when scientists clone? Really shocking to you isn't it. I could not either.

Here is my original thought. When a cluster of cells in which the cells get smaller and smaller generation after generation (cleavage) undergoes a twinning event and creates two clusters of cells in which the cells get smaller and smaller generation after generation (cleavage), I would not believe that to be fission in which a cell grows and then splits. Also even after the blastocyst divides it still does not grow in mass until it takes in nutrients from the mother to be. That is not fission, it is the continued process of cleavage.

Just my original thought. I could not even find a biologist that discusses your and many other philosophers fatherhoods describing human twinning as fission.