Iraqis cannot forget what Americans have done here’

[Hobo1]

In thinking about it, many countries need a military to actually protect their national security. That is, border disputes or conflicts between neighboring countries (or internally). That's when a military is needed.

The other case involves philosophy. For example, the US and Russia have strong military capabilities and the political leadership things some distant country needs help, such as imposing democracy or helping a rebel force to fight a leader we don't like. That is the wrong way to use the military.

 

[Aus22]

Hobo1, I agree . It is not the right of big countries or empires to use their armies to impose on other countries. However some intervention might be justified if the majority of the country wants help and we just want to return to the status quo. This I think is the position in Mali.

 

[Hobo1]

Hobo1, I agree . It is not the right of big countries or empires to use their armies to impose on other countries. However some intervention might be justified if the majority of the country wants help and we just want to return to the status quo. This I think is the position in Mali.

It's hard for me to imagine how suddenly an enclave of al Qaeda suddenly can take up commanding positions without some local support. France thought it was going to be an quick clean-up operation, and discovered things were much more complex. My fear is once people start dying - on both sides, the mission creeps to something larger and larger. The next thing you know we have grand programs like counterinsurgency and nation building until we are dragged into an extended war.

Nothing is simple when it comes to fighting civil wars - and that could be what is happening in Mali.

 

[Aus22]

Hobo1. I agree we have to be very careful in Mali. The facts are not clear yet. There has to be a sizable group inMmali who want Foreign intervention. Some of those who now support the Islamists were trained by Americans. Why did they change sides. Is it more money or religion. I suspect it is a bit of both. We also have to look at the French motives. Here are no many assets in Mali but there is oil in Algeria. Are they just saving the oil.This policy fail in Iraq. We must give the Mali people what they want. I agree that counterinsurgency and nation building will not work unless we allow the Mali people to control them.

 

[Hobo1]

Aus22, while reading the information about Mali in Wikipedia, it occurred to me that this situation was so much like Afghanistan 10 years ago. It is an very undeveloped country in all respects. Virtually all of the people are Muslim. The country has had defined borders only for a short time. Typically in this situation, the citizens are more loyal to their religion than their government.

The al Qaeda group that has started the conflict is rather mysterious as to origins and loyalties. Plus, the relationship between the al Qaeda fighters and the Mali people are also ill defined.

It seems obvious that one botched attack by the Western nations and we would quickly be viewed as the enemy. Giving the Mali people what they want is extremely difficult to do - simply because the population is so primitive. One thing is for sure... if we kill the wrong person (which we seem to do often), a large portion of the Mali population will suddenly be against us.

 

[Aus22]

Hobo1, I agree with your assessment that the Mali situation is difficult. It is true that the borders are new and this applies to much of Africa. The Mali of Mali were determine by a Colonial power France. Having done this France feels it must intervene. I am mot sure it intends a long term stay. However it feels it much protect European people and their supporters. It would better if it handed over to an African force. But sometimes Europeans do not trust Africans. Look at the reports of the Afghanistan rescue. Some mistakes were made but most hostages were freed. Perhaps this is all we can hope for.

 

[Saxon]

Hobo1. I agree that Iraq should be angry at the invasion of the US. However there were some Iraquies who ask for American intervention. This does not justify it but shows how easy it is for a powerful nation to use the elite of a country to impose the government it wants. This is not just the USA but all the great empires have done the same. Even Indonesia has invaded its neighbours. Its army was active in trying to stop Timor from having independence. It is also active in West Papua suppressing any opposition.

I afraid no country is perfect.

The Iraqis NEVER asked for American intervention. Cut the bullshit.

 

[Aus22]

The Iraqis NEVER asked for American intervention. Cut the bullshit.

Groups of Iraquis opposed to the Government did ask for Western intervention to get rid of Hassan. They made up stories about a weapon as well.

I was and have always been opposed to the invasion of Iraq. I suspect there is something in American society that wants to invade someone every twenty years. Even if the previous once failed since Vietnam I afraid this pattern will continue. All great powers have done this.

 

[Hobo1]

Here is a tweet that I made, and seems very appropriate to this discussion:
"Ten years on, Western leaders have learned nothing from Iraq disaster."
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/770507.shtml
Even the Chinese can see this deadly path that the US is following.

 

[Aus22]

Hobo1, I agree

 

[Saxon]

Groups of Iraquis opposed to the Government did ask for Western intervention to get rid of Hassan. They made up stories about a weapon as well.

I was and have always been opposed to the invasion of Iraq. I suspect there is something in American society that wants to invade someone every twenty years. Even if the previous once failed since Vietnam I afraid this pattern will continue. All great powers have done this.

No group ever asked the US for assistance. I know this for a fact.

US interference via invasion is why I miss the Soviet Union. Do you honestly believe the USA would have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan had the Soviet Union still been around? Not a chance. The Soviets were very adept at making the fucking Americans mind their own goddamned business.

 

[dogtowner]

You seem to have forgotten that the usa saw to it that the ussr mind uts business and quit afghanistan. Among others.

 

[Hobo1]

US interference via invasion is why I miss the Soviet Union. Do you honestly believe the USA would have invaded Iraq or Afghanistan had the Soviet Union still been around? Not a chance. The Soviets were very adept at making the fucking Americans mind their own goddamned business.

You make a good point. The Cold War was somewhat effective at keeping the US focused on containing the US military ventures around the world. That's not to say the perfectly US was content to stay at home and mind its own business. About 225 Marines were killed in Lebanon when the US stuck it's nose into the Lebanese Civil War (1983). But US military actions were more discrete during the Cold War; helping Israel, multiple covert CIA operations in Latin America, and Afghanistan.

Now the US is the only super-power, we love to send troops everywhere acting as policemen to the world.

I hate it! Why can't we just stay at home and mind our own business?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

You make a good point. The Cold War was somewhat effective at keeping the US focused on containing the US military ventures around the world. That's not to say the perfectly US was content to stay at home and mind its own business. About 225 Marines were killed in Lebanon when the US stuck it's nose into the Lebanese Civil War (1983). But US military actions were more discrete during the Cold War; helping Israel, multiple covert CIA operations in Latin America, and Afghanistan.

Now the US is the only super-power, we love to send troops everywhere acting as policemen to the world.

I hate it! Why can't we just stay at home and mind our own business?

umm Korea,Vietnam, All Over South America...

 

[Gipper]

You make a good point. The Cold War was somewhat effective at keeping the US focused on containing the US military ventures around the world. That's not to say the perfectly US was content to stay at home and mind its own business. About 225 Marines were killed in Lebanon when the US stuck it's nose into the Lebanese Civil War (1983). But US military actions were more discrete during the Cold War; helping Israel, multiple covert CIA operations in Latin America, and Afghanistan.

Now the US is the only super-power, we love to send troops everywhere acting as policemen to the world.

I hate it! Why can't we just stay at home and mind our own business?

Well how about that? We agree on something.

Nonintervention is the policy America should follow. Unfortunately we have fools in charge, who love intervention. They include Neocons, statists, and Progressives.