Have you investigated Gnostic Christianity?

[castingpearlsbeforeswine]

Hi, this deception happened to me, and Jesus set me free. He can with you too

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

most Ghostic Literature I read relies Christian Writings. For Example in The
Gnostic Gospels"by Elaine Pagels he claims that texts discovered at Nag Hammadi were attribute to Jesus. For example the "Gospels of Phillip:" but it contradict the Gospels accepted by most Christians Most of the writings use Christian terminology, unmistakably to a Jewish Heritage".

They claim to be from the 2nd Century so I doubt they call for equality of the sexes a concept not exposed to much later

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

Gnostic Christians equate equality to righteousness.

http://www.netplaces.com/gnostic-go...c-gospels/gnostic-view-of-gender-equality.htm

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Hi, this deception happened to me, and Jesus set me free. He can with you too

You are wrong about many things. Do not read literally. It does not work.

It happens that for Christians, I promote the Jesus of the bible that the churches do not.

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

You seem to dislike going within as Jesus taught yet that is where God and his kingdom are. But I understand if you do not believe Jesus. Few Christians do.

Understanding is not their forte as they just care about salvation and will follow Satan to get that fear appeased.

You gave a lot of information and I did not read it all but if you want to know what a real live Gnostic Christian things, ask away.

Regards
DL

 

[GBFan]

So .... you didn't read a counter-position, but are willing, ready, and presumably able to pontificate on your view.

How can you have a viable viewpoint if you don't look at the counterpoint?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

So .... you didn't read a counter-position, but are willing, ready, and presumably able to pontificate on your view.

How can you have a viable viewpoint if you don't look at the counterpoint?

I skimmed through but if you believed in it, you would have pressed a bit.

This O P is primarily about Gnosticism but if you want to briefly outline any counter position, I will be here to set you straight.

Regards
DL

 

[GenSeneca]

As the superior Catholic theology, it is my hope that Gnostic Christianity will eventually bury the non-egalitarian and immoral Christian cults as their members recognize that equality is the right moral system for all to live under.

As I understand it, you do not believe the words in the bible are to be taken literally...

Are we to take your words literally?

Members of a collective who believe themselves superior to others, who hope to bury their enemies, and who seek to impose what they consider the "right moral system" on all others... Why does that sound so familiar?
Oh right... Every despotic regime in history!

If you're up to it, I actually do have some serious questions I hope you won't mind answering...

Do Gnostic Christians believe Individuals have Rights?
Are these Rights the same for every individual, or do our Rights vary depending on which collective we're associated with?
What is the Gnostic Christian view on the Use of Force?
When is it moral to use force and when is it immoral?

For what it's worth, I do find the Gnostic beliefs interesting thus far. The duality of error and existence, it's very interesting stuff.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

As I understand it, you do not believe the words in the bible are to be taken literally...

Are we to take your words literally?

Members of a collective who believe themselves superior to others, who hope to bury their enemies, and who seek to impose what they consider the "right moral system" on all others... Why does that sound so familiar?
Oh right... Every despotic regime in history!

If you're up to it, I actually do have some serious questions I hope you won't mind answering...
Do Gnostic Christians believe Individuals have Rights?
Are these Rights the same for every individual, or do our Rights vary depending on which collective we're associated with?
What is the Gnostic Christian view on the Use of Force?
When is it moral to use force and when is it immoral?

For what it's worth, I do find the Gnostic beliefs interesting thus far. The duality of error and existence, it's very interesting stuff.

We are tough to nail down in terms of modern beliefs but here is a basic set. Please allow so leeway as there are different Gnostic Christians just as there are many different Christian sects.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

-------------------------------
"Members of a collective who believe themselves superior to others"

I base my statement on thre fact that it is superior to have all souls equal and not to discriminate against women and gays the way most Abrahamic Christian and Muslim cults do.
-----------------------------------

"Do Gnostic Christians believe Individuals have Rights?"

Absolutely. To keep this short, the U.N. list would do nicely.
In a sense, we give women and children more rights than men as we think the law of the sea should also be the law on land.

To us, any man not willing to put his family ahead of himself is not much of a man.

--------------------------------------

"Are these Rights the same for every individual, or do our Rights vary depending on which collective we're associated with?"

Other affiliations do not effect how we view your rights. The only caveat I can think of is what I put just above on women and children.

---------------------------------

"What is the Gnostic Christian view on the Use of Force?
When is it moral to use force and when is it immoral?"

The Christian Jesus that Rome created would say to turn the other cheek to evil.

Gnostic Christians would say to fight against evil and that for evil to grow, all good people need do is nothing.

That does not mean of course that force or harm is the best weapon against evil.

If an evil heart can be moved by kindness then it should be the first choice.

It all depends on the situation and evil is a broad issue. A child beginning to act out might be changed by kindness. A hardened man will spit kindness right back at us.

What are your thoughts on this?

Regards
DL

 

[GenSeneca]

We are tough to nail down in terms of modern beliefs but here is a basic set. Please allow so leeway as there are different Gnostic Christians just as there are many different Christian sects.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

-------------------------------

Thanks for the link! Can you recommend any that deal more with the ascension aspects of Gnosticism?

"Members of a collective who believe themselves superior to others"

I base my statement on thre fact that it is superior to have all souls equal and not to discriminate against women and gays the way most Abrahamic Christian and Muslim cults do.
-----------------------------------

Again, not sure if you mean for your words to be taken literally...

"Do Gnostic Christians believe Individuals have Rights?"

Absolutely. To keep this short, the U.N. list would do nicely.
In a sense, we give women and children more rights than men as we think the law of the sea should also be the law on land.

To us, any man not willing to put his family ahead of himself is not much of a man.

--------------------------------------

You "give" women and children "more" rights than men... but at who's expense...

"Are these Rights the same for every individual, or do our Rights vary depending on which collective we're associated with?"

Other affiliations do not effect how we view your rights. The only caveat I can think of is what I put just above on women and children.

---------------------------------

So, you think it's morally wrong for Christians and Muslims to discriminate against women and gays... But consider it morally correct to discriminate against men by giving women and children "more" rights...

"What is the Gnostic Christian view on the Use of Force?
When is it moral to use force and when is it immoral?"

It all depends on the situation and evil is a broad issue.

What are your thoughts on this?

I support individual rights, i.e., equal rights and freedoms that are the exact same for every individual. No individual has a Right to the life, liberty, or property of another. Along those lines, section 13 of the link you shared talked about people having the right to choose, the freedom to make your own decisions, as being important to your faith. So, for example, passing a law that forces me to contribute to a cause you think is worthy, would both eliminate my ability to choose and violate my Rights as an individual. However, that is what must be done in order to "give" women and children "more" rights than men.

Do you disagree with Gnosticism, or it is disagreeing with you?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

GenSeneca

"Thanks for the link! Can you recommend any that deal more with the ascension aspects of Gnosticism?"

My pleasure. No, I cannot. There may be some out there but a modern Gnostic Christian will see Jesus as a man and Rabbi. Dead men do not walk or rise from the grave. The tradition I follow is that Jesus never died. Why would he have to die to redeem us when he never condemned us. A God that condemns man is condemning himself if he made us what we are. Right?

The only ascension I believe in happens within our own minds as that is where God is. Within. Exactly where all the Jesus' say he is.
--------------------------------

"Again, not sure if you mean for your words to be taken literally"

Yes. That is my literal belief.

--------------------------------

"You "give" women and children "more" rights than men... but at who's expense"

To the glory of men who know what their duty to the whole of the human demography is.

That is what created the law of the sea in the first place.

Or do you want to join the Captain Coward Club.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/world/costa-concordia-captain-coward-back-on-board-1-3323170
-----------------------------

"So, you think it's morally wrong for Christians and Muslims to discriminate against women and gays... But consider it morally correct to discriminate against men by giving women and children "more" rights..."

Correct. See above. You might call it Affirmative Action.

-----------------------------------
To your last.

I have no worthy disagreement with Gnostic Christianity as I know it.

If you think it a burden to place your children and women and their needs above yours then I would say that you should look for another religion. You would not be Gnostic Christian material.

Regards
DL

 

[GBFan]

I am a strong believer in allowing an individual to practice his religion, or his non-religion, in any manner he deems fit. I will not be dragged into a theological shoot-out. I am secure in my beliefs, and in my position, and have neither the need, nor the initiative to try to convert the nonconvertible.

However, over the past few weeks, I have watched so-called 'gnostic Christianity' attempt to bully the members of this forum. Under the guise of raising theological questions, they simply law in wait so they can ridicule and target those who do not believe as they do.

Accordingly, I have tried to familiarize myself with understanding gnosticism. Here's what I was able to find ...

1) Definition: Gnosticism was a second century heresy claiming that salvation could be gained through secret knowledge. Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know."

2) The Gnostics supposedly had knowledge of God that was exclusive. They considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics prior to Christianity taught that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are man's earthly existence, and were considered evil. Enclosed in mans soul, is the spirit, a divine substance of man. This “spirit” was asleep and ignorant and needed to be awakened. It could only be liberated by this special knowledge, that would be called by the modern term illumination. (This teaching is also found in Caballa.)

3) Writers of the New Testament (the apostles) condemned the Gnostic teachings. There are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16). Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things. To overcome the indulgences of the flesh (the “Colossian Heresy” ) the Gnostics taught a false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

4) There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises.

First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plain of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

Once you understand their belief that they hold 'special knowledge' unavailable to ordinary Christians. That explains their predilection for arrogance and dismissiveness. After all, you can't have an honest philosophical or theological disagreement with a Gnostic because, after all, they have 'special knowledge' not available to the peons.

The special advantage of Gnostic arrogance is their ability to construct rationale for their excesses and indulgences. Since they have 'special knowledge', they can't be held in judgment by non-Gnostics. Thus, no sin ... not a bad deal.

In point ... we must accept that Gnosticism is a mutually exclusive belief from Christianity. Further, we must accept that, in the end, judgment will be made by a just God, and somebody, either Gnostics or Christians, will be found wanting.

God has laid down the rules - He has been very consistent and very clear about His expectations. You can expect that you will be treated the same as those who have followed His rules or those who haven't followed His rules.

But then, if in the end, atheists are right, and there is no God, then it doesn't much matter, does it?

 

[GenSeneca]

Correct. See above. You might call it Affirmative Action.

Fairness: free from discrimination, dishonesty, etc; just; impartial
Discrimination: an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
What you've suggested is not fair, just, or impartial. It is, however, the very definition of discrimination. You are making a distinction not only between the sexes but by age as well.

I have no worthy disagreement with Gnostic Christianity as I know it.

If it's not your error, then it must be a flaw in the Gnostic belief.

You claim the belief superior for holding all souls equal, but admit to Gnosticism advocating for discrimination based on sex and age. You have stated these are your literal beliefs, so you should be aware of this contradiction.

If equality is the yardstick by which you believe the superiority of a belief is judged, then the discrimination aspect of Gnosticism would preclude the possibility of it actually being a superior belief.

If you think it a burden to place your children and women and their needs above yours then I would say that you should look for another religion.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to learn about yours.

Section 13 of your link on Gnosticism specifically stated the right to choose, and the freedom to make your own choices, as an important tenet of your religion. What you propose violates that right, violates that freedom, for the people you're discriminating against. Perhaps they should update that section to make it clear that: Men do not have this right to decide, or freedom to choose, under Gnosticism.

You would not be Gnostic Christian material.

I would not, could not, in a box. I would not, could not at the HOP....

If you're good with having unexplained contradictions within your religion, if you don't mind having to be dishonest about the superiority and equality of your beliefs, then that must be what it takes to be Gnostic Christian material.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I am a strong believer in allowing an individual to practice his religion, or his non-religion, in any manner he deems fit. I will not be dragged into a theological shoot-out. I am secure in my beliefs, and in my position, and have neither the need, nor the initiative to try to convert the nonconvertible.

However, over the past few weeks, I have watched so-called 'gnostic Christianity' attempt to bully the members of this forum. Under the guise of raising theological questions, they simply law in wait so they can ridicule and target those who do not believe as they do.

Accordingly, I have tried to familiarize myself with understanding gnosticism. Here's what I was able to find ...

1) Definition: Gnosticism was a second century heresy claiming that salvation could be gained through secret knowledge. Gnosticism is derived from the Greek word gnosis, meaning "to know."

2) The Gnostics supposedly had knowledge of God that was exclusive. They considered themselves superior to the average Christian. The Gnostics prior to Christianity taught that man is composed of body, soul, and spirit. The body and the soul are man's earthly existence, and were considered evil. Enclosed in mans soul, is the spirit, a divine substance of man. This “spirit” was asleep and ignorant and needed to be awakened. It could only be liberated by this special knowledge, that would be called by the modern term illumination. (This teaching is also found in Caballa.)

3) Writers of the New Testament (the apostles) condemned the Gnostic teachings. There are numerous epistles that address this ancient heresy that is now having a revival. Paul emphasized a wisdom and knowledge that comes from God and does not concern itself with idle speculations, angelic visitations, fables, and a amoral lifestyle (Col. 2:8-23; 1 Tim. 1:4; 2 Tim. 2:16-19; Titus 1:10-16). Paul addresses the Gnostic influences in portions of Colossians as a direct threat to Christ being our salvation and His being sufficient in all things. To overcome the indulgences of the flesh (the “Colossian Heresy” ) the Gnostics taught a false philosophy, which denied the all-sufficiency and pre-eminence of Jesus Christ (Col. 2:8). When he wrote that “in him dwells All the fullness of the deity bodily” it was a rebuttal against the Gnostics.

4) There is actually no such thing as Christian Gnosticism, because true Christianity and Gnosticism are mutually exclusive systems of belief. The principles of Gnosticism contradict what it means to be a Christian. Therefore, while some forms of Gnosticism may claim to be Christian, they are in fact decidedly non-Christian.

Gnosticism was perhaps the most dangerous heresy that threatened the early church during the first three centuries. Influenced by such philosophers as Plato, Gnosticism is based on two false premises.

First, it espouses a dualism regarding spirit and matter. Gnostics assert that matter is inherently evil and spirit is good. As a result of this presupposition, Gnostics believe anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only.

Second, Gnostics claim to possess an elevated knowledge, a “higher truth” known only to a certain few. Gnosticism comes from the Greek word gnosis which means “to know.” Gnostics claim to possess a higher knowledge, not from the Bible, but acquired on some mystical higher plain of existence. Gnostics see themselves as a privileged class elevated above everybody else by their higher, deeper knowledge of God.

Once you understand their belief that they hold 'special knowledge' unavailable to ordinary Christians. That explains their predilection for arrogance and dismissiveness. After all, you can't have an honest philosophical or theological disagreement with a Gnostic because, after all, they have 'special knowledge' not available to the peons.

The special advantage of Gnostic arrogance is their ability to construct rationale for their excesses and indulgences. Since they have 'special knowledge', they can't be held in judgment by non-Gnostics. Thus, no sin ... not a bad deal.

In point ... we must accept that Gnosticism is a mutually exclusive belief from Christianity. Further, we must accept that, in the end, judgment will be made by a just God, and somebody, either Gnostics or Christians, will be found wanting.

God has laid down the rules - He has been very consistent and very clear about His expectations. You can expect that you will be treated the same as those who have followed His rules or those who haven't followed His rules.

But then, if in the end, atheists are right, and there is no God, then it doesn't much matter, does it?

Who called it a heresy and did Christianity not also claim to have the truth?

You also took some really old garbage out of your bin. Do you not think that modern Gnostic Christianity would have evolved over time?

Just because Christianity is stuck in the ancient past does not mean it's better are.

Here. Have a look at what modern Gnostic Christian seekers believe. We are not all 100% behind these so ask questions. Your research and bias has given you some false beliefs.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

Regards.
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I am a strong believer in allowing an individual to practice his religion, or his non-religion, in any manner he deems fit.
?

So what these links show, especially the last 3, could could be happening in your town and you would say nothing. Right?

It is my view that all right wing literalists and fundamentals hurt all of us who are moral religionists, --- as well as those who do not believe. Literalists hurt their parent religions --- and everyone else, be he a believer or not. Literalists and the right wing of religions make us all into laughing stocks. Their God of talking animals, genocidal floods and retribution has got to go. So must beliefs in fantasy, miracles and magic. These are all evil.

They also do much harm to their own.
African witches and Jesus

Jesus Camp 1of 3

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available

Death to Gays.

For evil to grow my friends, all good people need do is nothing.
Fight them when you can. It is your duty to our fellow man.

Regards
DL

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

Fairness: free from discrimination, dishonesty, etc; just; impartial
Discrimination: an act or instance of discriminating, or of making a distinction.
What you've suggested is not fair, just, or impartial. It is, however, the very definition of discrimination. You are making a distinction not only between the sexes but by age as well.

If it's not your error, then it must be a flaw in the Gnostic belief.

You claim the belief superior for holding all souls equal, but admit to Gnosticism advocating for discrimination based on sex and age. You have stated these are your literal beliefs, so you should be aware of this contradiction.

If equality is the yardstick by which you believe the superiority of a belief is judged, then the discrimination aspect of Gnosticism would preclude the possibility of it actually being a superior belief.


I'm pleased to have the opportunity to learn about yours.

Section 13 of your link on Gnosticism specifically stated the right to choose, and the freedom to make your own choices, as an important tenet of your religion. What you propose violates that right, violates that freedom, for the people you're discriminating against. Perhaps they should update that section to make it clear that: Men do not have this right to decide, or freedom to choose, under Gnosticism.


I would not, could not, in a box. I would not, could not at the HOP....

If you're good with having unexplained contradictions within your religion, if you don't mind having to be dishonest about the superiority and equality of your beliefs, then that must be what it takes to be Gnostic Christian material.

I explained what you call a contradiction and you are a candidate for the Captain Coward Club for sure. Wear your dress on the boat and hope men do not notice.

P.S. Section 13 speaks of faith. This is not a faith issue. Nice try though.

Regards
DL

 

[GBFan]

Who called it a heresy and did Christianity not also claim to have the truth?

You also took some really old garbage out of your bin. Do you not think that modern Gnostic Christianity would have evolved over time?

Just because Christianity is stuck in the ancient past does not mean it's better are.

Here. Have a look at what modern Gnostic Christian seekers believe. We are not all 100% behind these so ask questions. Your research and bias has given you some false beliefs.

http://www.thesongofgod.com/tgc/basic_beliefs.html

Regards.
DL

I rest my case.

Your reference directly supports the arrogance, narcissism, and plain ol' egotism inherent in the Gnostic movement. It allows you to feel better about yourself, to perceive yourself as residing on a higher plane (due to some secret knowledge).

Frankly, it's an exercise in mental masturbation.