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Has socialism already failed in the US ?

Discussion in 'U.S. Politics' started by dogtowner, Jul 20, 2019.

  1. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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  2. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

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    It is stupid to lend money to someone who cant afford to pay it back. In Europe every bank is strictly required to proove credit-worthiness of a borrower.

    Regarding "socialism" - it is only a word and has different meanings to different people. Germany, economically very strong, has many measures in place that probably would be considered far-left-wing by you.
     
  3. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah we had measures in place to avoid loans that were not creditworthy. Then government stepped in. Bankers did what they coukd to hedge and passed the bad paper to Sallie Mae who knowingly bought these loans and the end was made.

    Socialism ceased to be strictly a theory long ago and comes in many flavors. Our toe dipping efforts have failed as they were invoked as vote buying schemes. Most of our politics center on vote buying. Policy is not much more than a joke any more.
     
  4. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    The US has never adopted socialism, and never will. Socialism is an economic system in which the government owns the means of production. Were we socialists, the the government would own GM, Ford, Boeing, all of the major companies, as well as all that productive farmland in the Mid west, California, and elsewhere. The guy on the tractor planting corn would be working for the government, not for himself.

    The purpose the word "socialism" has is to scare people away from government programs that people don't like: universal health care is "socialized medicine," raising the minimum wage is socialism, food stamps are socialism, etc.

    Venezuela tried real socialism, and we can all see the result. Some call the Scandinavian countries "socialist" as well, and yet the result there is quite different, and why is that?

    Because they're not really socialist, that' why.
     
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  5. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Clearly there is a sliding scale of sorts for socialism around the world.
    Europe is socialist in its way as is scandanavia Russia and South America.
    Venezuela fell to corruption as is so common in the 3rd world.
    The US is knee deep as well under the false guise of "general welfare".
    The textbook excuse is no excuse as even Marx described. Its a process, an evolution.
     
  6. invest07

    invest07 Well-Known Member

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    Socialism is unsustainabled. The socialust West European countries are in debt up to their ying yang and the debt is growing. Socialism is based on the principle of wealth redistribution to buy votes. So those that are successful get penalized and the unsuccessful get rewarded.
    This creates an environment that perpetually relies on debt, more debt and even more debt.
    We are overdue for a stock market crash and when it comes the cry will be for even more wealth redistribution which will just pile on more debt.
    Show me one socialist country that does not have a huge national debt.
     
  7. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

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  8. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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  9. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

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    So in what kind or form do you think the US is a socials country (even in a mild way)?
     
  10. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    EU lite. Social hammock ("safety net"), high taxes.
    Do you guys still get vacation money ? My dutch friend was pining for the okd days in the Nethelands where they got a month off with extra pay. Spain was a popular destination for them.
     
  11. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

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    Some countries (like Germany) pay the yearly salary divided by 12, other countries (like Austria) pay the yearly salary divided by 14 (so each month you get a 14th, in two months - typically July (vacation) and December (Christmas) - you get an extra 14th).

    Salary isnt higher! And usually salaries in Europe are lower than in the US.

    So no socialism here.
     
  12. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    So thats how it works. Thanks.
    Who decided to pay salary / 14 ?
    Seems like quite a feat to have it occur to all employers just decide to do it on their own.
    If it was the government, thats socialism (not textbook Marx but rather the euro version).
     
  13. Walter

    Walter Administrator Staff Member

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    Thats historic. As far as I know it came from factory owners in the 19th century paying their workers a bit more at certain times in the year for social or humanitarian reasons.
     
  14. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Looks like somewhere along the line it became law. And grew some reduced taxation to sweeten the pot.

    https://www.virtualvienna.net/working-in-vienna/salaries/
     
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  15. Centrehalf

    Centrehalf Well-Known Member

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    I think DeMaggio was complaining about Social Democracy, not Socialism. Floating bad loans is poor policy but it's not Socialism. Socialism hasn't failed in America because the attempt to make this nation Socialist has only just begun. People my age or older tend to think of Socialism as a top-down dictatorial affair but there's another kind of Socialism: Democratic Socialism. Listening to some of the younger people I know talk about how society and business should work makes me worry about the future of this country. When we hear Socialism we shouldn't think Soviet Union or China or Venezuela...we should think Spanish Republic.
     
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