God is responsible for all the bad stuff that happens

Certainly. Not everyone love themselves so much they are willing to chop off their dicks and sew a vagina where it used to be.

For this, I beg your kind understanding.

Ha,Ha! I got you! Any time you resort to cheap (and false) personal attacks I know you lost.

It's your own damn fault, you had to claim that Jesus' was vague and then you had to prove it with your weird sex accusations. Hoist on your own petard!

You don't have to have an adversarial relationship with me, but you seem to want one.
 
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Speaking of rigor mortis, is it also your opinion that necrophiliacs 'love others as themselves'? Surely, homosexuality is a mere stone-throw away from this absurd nonsense.

Does love = sex in your mind?

It appears that way from your posts.

Yet love and sex are two very different things in the real world.
 
I asked about Jesus' two most important commandments and Nums went off into a tirade about sex, so what about you? If these are the two most important commandments in the whole Bible, do you use them to measure all other scriptures against? And if you do, then how can you willfully participate in the persecution of gay people?

I do try to measure all scripture against scripture.

I don't persecute gays - you just imagine I do. But if a single other person on this site will say that I do and quote me I will be glad to discuss it with that person and be ready to make a thorough apology and change of course.
 
The Bible actually says very little about homosexuality. I can't think of one instance in which Jesus even addressed the subject, can you?

Why is it that being gay has become such an issue among fundies today? It is a puzzle to me. It seems to me that a person's sexual orientation is his/her own business, after all. Why would I care whether someone else wanted to marry a member of his/her own gender? That doesn't affect me one way or the other.

People need to be free to be what they are, not what someone else thinks that they should be. Isn't allowing them to do that part of loving one's neighbor?

I agree very strongly with a lot of that.

Why is it that many many fundamentalist make it an issue? I don't know. Maybe like all people they are afraid of what they are unfamiliar with and/or don't understand.

I have also noticed it is common for many to dismiss many OT biblical laws but to hold on to others strongly against all logic. There are many who still need to read their bibles thoroughly and to be willing to research some parts.

If there is a problem with homosexuality in the bible it is not from the six or so verses that appear to address it and condemn it. If there is a problem it will be from the higher law of Christ which is not written but in the hearts of man and pointed to by the Mosaic Law. God does have a plan for the world and a pattern that He prefers and teasing out what it is can be hard.

But as MT states; the command to love God and neighbor is pretty clear. I do not find it hard to accept gay people even if my political understanding of the secular laws we live by are in disagreement with their agenda.

On a side note - I have noticed though that it is not only fundies who have an issue. So do many other Christians, Chreasters, and non-christians.
 
Does love = sex in your mind?

It appears that way from your posts.

Yet love and sex are two very different things in the real world.

If Numbs got all this out of the love others as yourself, then what do you think he will say about LOVE GOD?
 
I do try to measure all scripture against scripture.

I don't persecute gays - you just imagine I do. But if a single other person on this site will say that I do and quote me I will be glad to discuss it with that person and be ready to make a thorough apology and change of course.

You have consistently obfuscated and weaseled around to find ways to say that gay people cannot enjoy the same rights and privileges that you do. Denying gay people equality is persecution. So which is it?
 
Certainly. Not everyone love themselves so much they are willing to chop off their dicks and sew a vagina where it used to be.

For this, I beg your kind understanding.

Mare is actually one of the more kind and understanding people on the board. Not big on religious dogma but seems to always want the good things to come forward for people.

Loving ones self is an internal not external thing. You can change the outside by all kinds of ways to make yourself more internally happy or at ease. We see it everyday with all kinds of plastic surgery from minimal to major.

The old saying comes to mind and defines confident thought... I'd rather be hated for who I really am than loved for who I am not.
 
Mare is actually one of the more kind and understanding people on the board. Not big on religious dogma but seems to always want the good things to come forward for people.

Loving ones self is an internal not external thing. You can change the outside by all kinds of ways to make yourself more internally happy or at ease. We see it everyday with all kinds of plastic surgery from minimal to major.

The old saying comes to mind and defines confident thought... I'd rather be hated for who I really am than loved for who I am not.

Thanks, Top, and another way to say that is that "It's better for others to hate you than it is to hate yourself."
 
I agree very strongly with a lot of that.

Why is it that many many fundamentalist make it an issue? I don't know. Maybe like all people they are afraid of what they are unfamiliar with and/or don't understand.

I have also noticed it is common for many to dismiss many OT biblical laws but to hold on to others strongly against all logic. There are many who still need to read their bibles thoroughly and to be willing to research some parts.

If there is a problem with homosexuality in the bible it is not from the six or so verses that appear to address it and condemn it. If there is a problem it will be from the higher law of Christ which is not written but in the hearts of man and pointed to by the Mosaic Law. God does have a plan for the world and a pattern that He prefers and teasing out what it is can be hard.

But as MT states; the command to love God and neighbor is pretty clear. I do not find it hard to accept gay people even if my political understanding of the secular laws we live by are in disagreement with their agenda.

On a side note - I have noticed though that it is not only fundies who have an issue. So do many other Christians, Chreasters, and non-christians.

Yes, they do, Muslims in particular, but non religious types and non fundamentalist Christians as well. Chreasters? I'm not familiar with that word.

The evidence is pretty strong that homosexuals are born that way, that it is not a choice. That being the case, God, whoever or whatever we conceive god to be, made them that way. How can we say that god is wrong?
 
Ha,Ha! I got you! Any time you resort to cheap (and false) personal attacks I know you lost.

It's your own damn fault, you had to claim that Jesus' was vague and then you had to prove it with your weird sex accusations. Hoist on your own petard!

You don't have to have an adversarial relationship with me, but you seem to want one.

LMAO.

You cannot even begin to answer a simple logical question and you think you got me, eh? Sex doesn't have anything to do with the question. A suicidal person can just as easily replace the masochist.

I repeat -- how is a suicidal person supposed to conform with the commandment of love -- as absurdly interpreted by you, hmmm?
 
Does love = sex in your mind?

It appears that way from your posts.

Yet love and sex are two very different things in the real world.

I am genuinely surprised with your question. The answer, of course, is quite obvious. My posts appear that way simply because mare represents them that way. It is called a straw man argument. In my opinion, people susceptible to straw man arguments (whether fashioning them or accepting their truth-value) are generally at their wit's end.

What you and mare conveniently ignore is that western thought is at an inexorable collision course with jesus' moral imperatives. Clearly, this is not merely a sexual matter.

Euthanasia for example -- where a patient wishes to die for entirely personal reasons, and his attending physician and next of kin conspire to grant the wish AGAINST NOT ONLY THE HIPPOCRATICAL OATH THE PHYSICIAN SWORE BUT ALSO AGAINST THE FUNDAMENTAL IMPERATIVE -- THOU SHALL NOT KILL.

So it is with abortion -- where the argument is so counter-intuitive -- human fetus simply isn't a human being, hence not the subject of the commandment of love. But the thing about it is that when human existence is the most vulnerable, the more urgent this imperative is.

The same reasoning applies with capital punishmen. That is why the divine consorted with the sinners and the dregs of society. They are the ones who required divine love the most.

In fact, even capitalism is becoming more incongruent with the commandment of love everyday. How can one purport to love his neighbor on one hand, and treat them as objects of commerce on the other? This becomes even more glaring in the business of medical science and innovation -- where the powers of human reasoning is made to account for profit before it can be made to alleviate human suffering.

This is a fundamental moral question -- what exactly does 'love others as yourself' really mean? Given mare's relative and often times vacillating sensibilities -- the question, in and of itself, IS VAGUE.

It becomes logical ONLY within the context of NATURAL LAW.

In this context, the fundamental moral question is transformed -- how is the human existence residing in every person ought to be treated -- if the creator saw it fit to himself suffer for humanity?

Clearly, how any individual imagines to treat himself becomes irrelevant. What becomes relevant is the human nature that resides in everyone -- including the masochist, the necrophiliac, the homosexual and the suicidal person.
 
I agree very strongly with a lot of that.

Why is it that many many fundamentalist make it an issue? I don't know. Maybe like all people they are afraid of what they are unfamiliar with and/or don't understand.

I have also noticed it is common for many to dismiss many OT biblical laws but to hold on to others strongly against all logic. There are many who still need to read their bibles thoroughly and to be willing to research some parts.

If there is a problem with homosexuality in the bible it is not from the six or so verses that appear to address it and condemn it. If there is a problem it will be from the higher law of Christ which is not written but in the hearts of man and pointed to by the Mosaic Law. God does have a plan for the world and a pattern that He prefers and teasing out what it is can be hard.

But as MT states; the command to love God and neighbor is pretty clear. I do not find it hard to accept gay people even if my political understanding of the secular laws we live by are in disagreement with their agenda.

On a side note - I have noticed though that it is not only fundies who have an issue. So do many other Christians, Chreasters, and non-christians.

The commandment of love is indeed clear -- although not necessarily what mare imagines it to be.

Everyone is a DISTINCT human being -- hence have distinct ideas on how to treat themselves. Some people like to fight, some people like to be left alone, some people require the company of others, etc. etc.

Inspite our distinctness -- WE SHARE A SINGLE NATURE. It is precisely this nature that drives human existence towards its purpose.

Human beings are alive hence ought to continue living according to that nature.

Human beings are imbued with free will hence ought to be free according to that nature.

Human beings are imbued with rational faculties hence ought to exercise that faculty according to that nature.

Human beings have dignity hence ought to live with dignity according to that nature.

Etc. etc. etc.
 
Mare is actually one of the more kind and understanding people on the board. Not big on religious dogma but seems to always want the good things to come forward for people.

I don't doubt his kindness and understanding. Just not kind and understanding with regards to catholics.

Loving ones self is an internal not external thing. You can change the outside by all kinds of ways to make yourself more internally happy or at ease. We see it everyday with all kinds of plastic surgery from minimal to major.

Nonsense.

Love is an objective existence within which human existence is supposed to thrive in. It is deeply associated with creative will.

Oh, before you even try contemplating that, you might want put some form of order in your thoughts -- which is in obvious disarray. You may start by reconciling your pretend-agnosticism with the real agnosticism.

Duh?

The old saying comes to mind and defines confident thought... I'd rather be hated for who I really am than loved for who I am not.

And that is relevant here....how, exactly?
 
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I don't doubt his kindness and understanding. Just not kind and understanding with regards to catholics.

I think you'll find if you take the time to review Mare much like myself just has seen no proof of what man made religious dogma states... and also understands all of the many ways man made religion often brought death & distruction throughout the ages in the name of one groups "god" over another, all positive there's was "the one & only".

One does not have to agree with someone's particular religious tales to be kind & understanding to people.



Nonsense.

Love is an objective existence within which human existence is supposed to thrive in. It is deeply associated with creative will.

Fortunately you have no intellect nor power to say what someone else feels or what makes someone else happy or feel loved.

Oh, before you even try contemplating that, you might want put some form of order in your thoughts -- which is in obvious disarray. You may start by reconciling your pretend-agnosticism with the real agnosticism.

Duh?

With that 12 year old mentality of "Duh"... that's speaks to you weakness more than I ever could.

Originally Posted by top gun
The old saying comes to mind and defines confident thought... I'd rather be hated for who I really am than loved for who I am not.


Originally Posted by numinus
And that is relevant here....how, exactly?

It simply means Mare and people of good will just want to be allowed to be themselves as they choose.

Being trapped by the evangelistic you have not the ability to comprehend this thought. Your sole purpose is to convert people to your indoctrination or ridicule them for not going along.

But the fact is your religious tale is not unique to what you believe to be absolute.

 
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