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Free Our Schools

Discussion in 'House of Politics Lounge' started by Iftikhar, Oct 30, 2010.

  1. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    I post about the Hillsdale system because I worked there. What is: "$$#$#^$^$%^%"?

    I know of no instance where Moore's movies have been shown in a public grade school. Now if you have some pertinent citations concerning "regular play", I would be glad to hear about it. If your kids were shown a Moore movie in private school, that has nothing to do with the public school system...their private school must be infested with liberalism.


    Never heard of it. Nor, have I seen all of Micheal Moore's movies. Note: You might be interested to know that I watch Fox News upon occasion...does that make me a Conservative? Read my post very slowly and look-up the word "demagoguery", and you will find that I am not positively disposed on the subject of Moore's movies.


    Being an, "...American living today...", and more importantly a former teacher and teacher union member, I can attest that all teachers are not union members, nor all liberals. "g-schools" are also "infested" with Conservatives. Note: They still recite the Pledge of Allegiance at morning flag raising and before school board meetings. How out of touch are you?
  2. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    If you had stayed awake in high school, or gone to college you would know that "scholarly" offerings (papers, posts, etc.), are properly required to have citations to verify and differentiate fact from opinion and source.
    See footnotes in the following:
    http://personal.ashland.edu/~jmoser1/papers.html
  3. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    Like demanding I show proof that obozo got elected in 2008. :p
  4. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    Good god, Gipper. Where do you go to high school? Is it a private school, or do you spend every day watching Michael Moore movies? Are your classmates as out of control as the ones Dahermit is describing?

    I'm still waiting for that "liberal BS" you say is in the curriculum. Surely, if it is there, you can find it in the curriculum standards of one of the most liberal states in the union.
  5. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    Supreme Court long ago ruled that because education was not mentioned in the Constitution, that the responsibility for it was each state's. With the exception of special incentives (like extra money for providing lunch), the schools are state controlled. There is no such thing as, " government socialist near monopoly". If you have a Conservative state, they can and do make the rules.

    The lunch program in Hillsdale has been privatized. Despite government subsidized food, the superior product that has resulted, despite several different companies, is inedible garbage. The curriculum in Michigan Public Schools is that which is demanded by the parents...through voting and electing the state government (which sometimes is Republican/Conservative), and the policies set by the elected school board. The state sets minimal requirements for the curriculum. So, an actual difference between Public Schools and private in this area are perception rather than fact.

    I have worked in several different occupations, other than teaching. In each occupation, I was surprised to find several former teachers. It would seem (although I have no data), that there are more former teachers than any other profession (I have never met a former Lawyer, Doctor, Dentist, etc.). Therefore, I have concluded that (and actually witnessed) many teachers quiting in the first couple of years of teaching. Pay and working conditions to result in low retention as it is. With privatization, many more would leave and there would be a significant teacher shortage for those private schools(there are teacher shortages in some areas now). Good luck with basing pay on teacher performance. No one can agree on what the characteristics of a "good teacher" are. Popular with the students? Popular with the administrators? (The principals main squeeze would get good evaluations). Teachers who had students with good grades? (Teachers would grade high to produce them.) It comes down to popularity or introduces factors that can easily be manipulated.

    Just like competition has eliminated huge salaries and bonuses for CEO's in business and banking? Dream on.

    Non-performing teachers can be fired in Michigan now. It has not produced better schools. Money for each student is based on the "Fourth Friday Count". All a "non-performing" school would have to do to stay solvent is to keep students enrolled until the count. Also, how do you "measure" how the school is performing? One way is on standard tests of Reading, Writing, Math, etc. I will tell you how Hillsdale Academy (private school, run by Hillsdale College does it), They select their students by interviewing parents. In effect, they only admit students who they know are good students. Therefore, their students are "high performing", where as the public schools have to accept everyone in the district.

    In Michigan, we have "schools of choice", they can go to any school they wish. It has not changed anything.

    Four or more kids and the middle class becomes the poor class. This has nothing to do with better schools, this has to do with funding.

    Schools will do anything to keep student head counts up. A private school would also need the head count for the money. Also, there has to be a lengthy process to satisfy the constitutional right for a child to have an education. They just cannot be expelled arbitrarily.

    When you put it that way, it really sounds good. Have you ever considered becoming a teacher?
  6. Gipper

    Gipper Well-Known Member

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    Yeah sorry THC...my bad. There is no liberalism in the p-schools...not even a tinsy ensy bitsy bit of liberalism...and the teachers unions they are completely unbiased too, in fact I think those unions give R candidates a lot more money than D candidates....and the p-schools have never ever shown Moore's or Gore's movies to students. :rolleyes:

    So thinks the useful idiot...
  7. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    So, you aren't going to address my post. OK, I expected that.
  8. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    The above is a straight-forward self-contradiction. It doesn't matter what level of government runs the near monopoly in a given area.

    I don't know any of the details in the cited case, but when government is substantially involved, nothing will work. Simply outsourcing this or that function, probably to the politically connected, while maintaining the overall semi-monopoly, has absolutely nothing to do with what I propose.


    You're arguing against yourself and don't realize it. The government school regime is horrendous, and of course it drives teachers away. To go from that and say privatization would drive more out is just bald-faced illogic. Like saying "bill couldn't do the job so I fired him, and therefore I won't hire mary, a completely different person who has a proven track record of doing things well." :rolleyes:

    Absolutely nonsense. Excellent young teachers might clear $100,000. They wouldn't languish under the irrational seniority system. Incompetents would at last be driven out, vastly improving education. Facilities would improve as would every other aspect under the spur of competition. Problem students would be booted out and not allowed to disrupt classes. The paperwork load dumped on teachers by incompetent administrators would be hugely streamlined. Many more people would be attracted to the profession after all the nonsense permitted in the government schools was cleared away.

    That's the way the vast majority of jobs work, but for some mysterious reason you exclude teachers.

    Your brain has been destroyed by the K12 system. :D What matters is OUTCOMES, as determined by test scores on tests given by independent testing firms hired by parents.

    :D More incredible cognitive dissonance from you. Contrary to what you've been brainwashed with by the lib media, those people EARN the huge salaries. If you can create billions of dollars in revenue for a corporation, they would be happy to pay YOU hundreds of millions of dollars.

    That's only one aspect of the corrupt, anachronistic, failed government system. If they can fire teachers, that's like patching one hole in a very leaky old boat. We need a new boat.


    A choice to go to any government school you want is no choice at all.

    If people make irresponsible choices in life, like having children they can't pay for, they end up poor - not quantum mechanics. Schools should not be organized around the behavior of the irresponsible.

    That's right, and in a market system, the only way they can do that is by offering a superior product, which is the whole point.

    The claim of such a right is an utterly lawless invention - no such right is in the US constitution. But in any case if the compensation offered by parents is high enough, special schools will be created by the market to handle such students.

    I have been one.
  9. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    So, now the parents are going to band together to hire someone to administer the tests, and that is going to give us a definitive proof of the level of student achievement.

    Your ideas are based on ideology, not on experience, research, facts, logic, or anything else.

    I've given those all important tests many times. What happens in the elementary school is predictable. The kids know that there are no consequences to a low score, nor any rewards for a high score. They know that the scores won't be known until the following school year anyway. The first test, they work fairly well. After that, at least half of the class is "finished" in five minutes.

    The test scores are totally bogus. Pleas tell us why you think tests given by an independent tester hired by the parents is going to give a more accurate result. While you're at it, tell us how many parents are going to be willing to chip in to hire this independent entity.
  10. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    Yep. What proof is better? Either you can do the work or you can't. :rolleyes:

    Pure ad hominem attack, since you can't refute anything I said. And I've been teaching for years - you don't know what you're talking about. :p Also more of the "Duhhhh -it's never been done that way before! Duh!"

    Tell me all about the >>>government schools<<<.

    First, lose the "us". It makes you sound...........pussified. Independent firms will face the same spur of competition as every other aspect of a privatized system. They do good work or go out of business. Government school tests reflect lib/left ideology, are dumbed down to accomodate the incompetent teaching corps, infected with pee see, etc etc. Don't extrapolate all the many failed aspects of the government school system to a privatized system. That's, well.......stupid.

    ("us"? :D)

    Like asking "how many people are going to chip in and pay their electric bills".

    Don't pay the bills, don't get admitted to school. :rolleyes:

    Do you have any non-stupid questions?
  11. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    As shown by the kid I watched taking one of those tests. He was filling in the boxes on the score sheet to form a large "Z" on his paper.
  12. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    Ahh yessss ........... the government schools in action. Sad.
  13. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    Yeah, right! A college teaching assistant does not a public school teacher make.
  14. dahermit

    dahermit New Member

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    No you fool. The obvious point was that if there are no rewards or punishments involved with the test, the students will not take it seriously. A former teacher indeed. Prove it.
  15. Rick

    Rick New Member

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    Now you're truncating my teaching resume. :D Had to lecture 300 student classes in science when the prof was gone (frequently) and do almost all other teaching tasks. Taught science labs. Taught regular sized classes in science too. Taught math and science in community college and also for profit colleges. Extensive tutoring background.

    Give it up. :rolleyes:

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