Free Our Schools

[Rick]

I didn't say it had never been tried before. I said it has never worked before.

No actually a universal privatized system of the kind I envision has never been tried before.

 

[PLC1]

No actually a universal privatized system of the kind I envision has never been tried before.

Oh, of the kind you envision.

Why do you think that is?

 

[Rick]

Oh, of the kind you envision.

Why do you think that is?

In the US, it's because the teachers unions have a death grip on the K12 education system, and regularly defeat politically any substantive reform.

 

[PLC1]

In the US, it's because the teachers unions have a death grip on the K12 education system, and regularly defeat politically any substantive reform.

Such as the kind you personally envision. How about the rest of the world?

 

[dahermit]

In the US, it's because the teachers unions have a death grip on the K12 education system, and regularly defeat politically any substantive reform.

That cannot be the case in Michigan, can it? Former governor Engler eliminated teacher tenure. Any Michigan teacher can be fired for cause in the past eight plus years. The quality of the Michigan education system has not shown any improvement in those years. Therefore, "bad teachers" are not likely the problem in Michigan.
Your statement also begs the question: What educational reforms have been blocked by teacher's unions, and what reforms do you want?

 

[Gipper]

Hillsdale, MI, school system's Super has two secretaries. Who by the way, are always busy working. Some "huge staff".

It would seem that you pretty much are blowing off about a subject of which you only have an outsider (no real knowledge about what is going on). Of course if you have some credentials (former teacher, administrator, etc.), I am sure we all would like to hear about it.

If you can pick one small district and then make national conclusions, so can I. Only my post represents what is actually going on and yours does not.

At $262,797 a year, retiring Coopersville superintendent is by far highest paid school chief in West Michigan
http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/index.ssf/2010/10/at_262797_a_year_retiring_coop.html

and this...

Source: School districts websites, Grand Valley State University, Michigan Education Department
Here are the top 10 earners in Coopersville schools in 2009, based on "box 5" of the W2 form, as provided to The Press on Tuesday.
• $262,797 Kevin O'Neill, superintendent
• $127,136 Ron Veldman, assistant superintendent
• $112,525 James Meerman, dean of students
• $112,280 Rich Salo, elementary principal
• $108,489 Ryan Pfahler, middle school principal
• $104,434 Steve Bennink, athletic director
• $102,878 Pete Bush, high school principal
• $99,018 Catherine Kloska, director of finance
• $96,693 Peter Struyk, teacher
• $94,597 Gary Klein, teacher

And this graphically proves my opinion and disproves yours...
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/news_impact/2009/05/pay-schools.pdf

And regarding governor Engler. You are wrong again. He was one of the best governors Michigan ever had, but the dumb b-i-t-c-h who succeeded him really screwed things up. And, he did not END teacher tenure.

The simple fact is, however, that Engler’s record of achievement would be the envy of any governor, Democrat or Republican. During his decade in office, the state has gone from being $1.8 billion in the red to having a $1.3 billion rainy day fund; Michigan is now the only large Midwestern industrial state with a AAA bond rating. Engler has engineered 31 tax cuts (he eliminated state inheritance and capital gains taxes), adding up to more than $20 billion. At the same time, he’s come through politically unscathed while pushing increases in sales, cigarette, liquor and gasoline taxes.

Perhaps the most difficult challenge of Engler’s career came in his first term, when he was forced to broker mandated changes to equalize school funding around the state. In the end, the governor engineered things so that voters were given a tantalizing ballot choice: in exchange for a property-tax rollback they could either increase the state income tax or sales tax. The electorate chose the higher sales tax, the school funding system was reformed, and all parties ended up with significant portions of what they wanted. It was a rare instance in Engler’s career in which consensus, rather than stubbornness, prevailed; it was also perhaps the most successful resolution of the school funding issue in any major state.
http://www.governing.com/poy/John-Engler.html

Under Engler, Michigan also became one of the foremost states in education reform. He led a charter-school revolution that is alive and well today; created a more equitable per-pupil school funding formula that dramatically reduced property taxes, and pushed a public-school-choice program that provides incentive for schools to compete for students. He supported legislation that put teeth in Michigan’s anti-teacher strike law and gave school boards more freedom to competitively contract for school support services.
http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=4945

 

[dahermit]

If you can pick one small district and then make national conclusions, so can I. Only my post represents what is actually going on and yours does not.

I mentioned Hillsdale because that is where I was employed. My choosing that district of course would not relate to national conclusions, only Michigan ones. Their are too many differences in educational systems throughout the different states to make generalizations. Although that is what you seem to do.

And this graphically proves my opinion and disproves yours...
http://blog.mlive.com/grpress/news_impact/2009/05/pay-schools.pdf

What is most apparent in your data is that only two of those listed as making too much money are protected by a teacher union. The others are subject to the control of the school boards, which are elected.

he did not END teacher tenure.

You are correct on this one...he just severely weakened it. Teachers can and are fired. And, he took most of the bargaining power away by making teacher strikes illegal. Therefor, a school board's offer of pay and benefits became a matter of, "take it or leave it", even if it is less than the previous contract. Therefore, if teachers in Michigan are over compensated, blame your local elected school board, not the union.

Nevertheless, here is what I suggest. If the pay and benefits are really that good, go to college and become one of those over-compensated and under-worked teachers and actually experience that life of luxury. Then come back here and shoot your mouth off all you want. Perhaps then, it will have the authority to not sound like a jackass braying.

Also, please enlighten me as to exactly how much a teacher who has a Master's degree, plus 10 years or so in service should make in a year? Please compare it to other occupations that have a Master's degree and ten years invested in their occupation. I would really like to know.

http://www.employmentspot.com/employment-articles/teacher-salaries-by-state/
According to CBSalary.com, the average teacher salary by city was as follows:

Springfield, IL – $48,015
Chicago, IL – $53,713
Atlanta, GA – $35,903
Savannah, GA – $25,008
Orlando, FL – $31,684
Tampa, FL – $36,630
Miami, FL – $34,501

 

[Rick]

Such as the kind you personally envision. How about the rest of the world?

You really think I am going to comment on the whole world's education systems? Don't have the time, sparky.

 

[Rick]

That cannot be the case in Michigan, can it? Former governor Engler eliminated teacher tenure. Any Michigan teacher can be fired for cause in the past eight plus years. The quality of the Michigan education system has not shown any improvement in those years. Therefore, "bad teachers" are not likely the problem in Michigan.
Your statement also begs the question: What educational reforms have been blocked by teacher's unions, and what reforms do you want?

Michigan's system is hardly what I advocate. Hmmmm.......wonder if anyone will ask me at some point in this thread the details of what I advocate?

 

[PLC1]

You really think I am going to comment on the whole world's education systems? Don't have the time, sparky.

You had the time to post that an all private system would be the best, to which I replied that such a system has never been successful.

Before suggesting that we try a non proven experimental program in something as critical as the educational system, wouldn't it be a good idea to look around and see what results such an experiment have had in other parts of the world?

Or, should we just take the system you envision on faith?

 

[Gipper]

I mentioned Hillsdale because that is where I was employed. My choosing that district of course would not relate to national conclusions, only Michigan ones. Their are too many differences in educational systems throughout the different states to make generalizations. Although that is what you seem to do.

What is most apparent in your data is that only two of those listed as making too much money are protected by a teacher union. The others are subject to the control of the school boards, which are elected.
You are correct on this one...he just severely weakened it. Teachers can and are fired. And, he took most of the bargaining power away by making teacher strikes illegal. Therefor, a school board's offer of pay and benefits became a matter of, "take it or leave it", even if it is less than the previous contract. Therefore, if teachers in Michigan are over compensated, blame your local elected school board, not the union.

Nevertheless, here is what I suggest. If the pay and benefits are really that good, go to college and become one of those over-compensated and under-worked teachers and actually experience that life of luxury. Then come back here and shoot your mouth off all you want. Perhaps then, it will have the authority to not sound like a jackass braying.

Also, please enlighten me as to exactly how much a teacher who has a Master's degree, plus 10 years or so in service should make in a year? Please compare it to other occupations that have a Master's degree and ten years invested in their occupation. I would really like to know.

http://www.employmentspot.com/employment-articles/teacher-salaries-by-state/
According to CBSalary.com, the average teacher salary by city was as follows:

Springfield, IL – $48,015
Chicago, IL – $53,713
Atlanta, GA – $35,903
Savannah, GA – $25,008
Orlando, FL – $31,684
Tampa, FL – $36,630
Miami, FL – $34,501

You misunderstand my point. I have nothing against good teachers making lots of money. Good teachers are nuggets of gold...good meaning they can effectively teach their students the subject...and not promote some wacky leftist crap.

I do have a problem with numerous school districts each with a superintendent, assistants, and assistants to the assistants. Centralizing many districts into one sure will eliminate a lot of waste.

I also have a problem with the stinking teachers unions who take my money and promote leftist BS. Teachers should not be allowed to unionize just as government workers should not be allowed either.

 

[PLC1]

You misunderstand my point. I have nothing against good teachers making lots of money. Good teachers are nuggets of gold...good meaning they can effectively teach their students the subject...and not promote some wacky leftist crap.

I do have a problem with numerous school districts each with a superintendent, assistants, and assistants to the assistants. Centralizing many districts into one sure will eliminate a lot of waste.

I also have a problem with the stinking teachers unions who take my money and promote leftist BS. Teachers should not be allowed to unionize just as government workers should not be allowed either.

I actually agree with part of this post this time. There are way too many layers of bureaucracy in education. Money collected for education needs to get to the classrooms where it is needed.

As for the "leftist BS" that is being taught, here are the content standards that every school in California is expected to teach. I've spent hours on it, learning what must be taught. I have found things like critical thinking skills (main idea of a paragraph, sorting fact from opinion, cause and effect, etc.), math, science, but no leftist BS.

Since California is one of the most liberal states in the union by anyone's definition, surely there must be some leftist BS here. Please find it and point it out for us.

 

[Rick]

You had the time to post that an all private system would be the best, to which I replied that such a system has never been successful.

Once again, not only has it never been tried, nothing even near to it has ever been tried.

Before suggesting that we try a non proven experimental program in something as critical as the educational system, wouldn't it be a good idea to look around and see what results such an experiment have had in other parts of the world?

ITS................NEVER..................BEEN.................TRIED.

 

[dahermit]

I actually agree with part of this post this time. There are way too many layers of bureaucracy in education. Money collected for education needs to get to the classrooms where it is needed.

As for the "leftist BS" that is being taught, here are the content standards that every school in California is expected to teach. I've spent hours on it, learning what must be taught. I have found things like critical thinking skills (main idea of a paragraph, sorting fact from opinion, cause and effect, etc.), math, science, but no leftist BS.

Since California is one of the most liberal states in the union by anyone's definition, surely there must be some leftist BS here. Please find it and point it out for us.

As a former teacher, I must have missed that day when we were told/encouraged/induced, etc., to teach, "leftist B.S."
What we did have however, was a state mandated curriculum that was developed by the Michigan State Department of Education. They mandated the curriculum, not "leftist teachers." Empowerd with only the powers that a person who picks cotton would have, "We uns jist does what we uns is tolt."

 

[dahermit]

It is somewhat amusing to hear the opinions on what is the root cause of failing secondary education in this courntry...from someone who has never been a teacher. For their benefit, I will tell you the three reasons why our schools are failing: 1) Lack of discipline. 2) Lack of discipline. 3) Lack of discipline.