Egypt protests turn Violant as Mubaraks secruty forces attack protesters

[pocketfullofshells]

Mubarak's thug security people have gone in and attacked the Peaceful protesters...of course plain clothed..but have been ID's as Police ...Large scale automatic gunfire in the streets right now, the army is standing int he middle in there vehicals doing little ( at times providing cover)...

Mubarak already has now been accusing "foreign governments" of being behind the protest...aka he has pulled the Blame the west and US card...Its time we made a clear stand against him, and on the side of the people...one that the Egypt army will understand as well...They back Mubarak , they lose US funding ( very important to them)

As a side note, I have been watching CNN, MSNBC, and Al Jazeera...all showing non stop footage of this escalation ...while Fox evry time I checked was just running adds or talking to McCain about Egypt and such....I am not sure if they just don't seem to think its worth airing...or if they just don't have anyone on the ground there....Anyone know if they have reporters there or not? I would think this would be the type of story that would trump any normal news storys right now at 10 pm at night here.

 

[GenSeneca]

... Peaceful protesters...

Egyptians who riot in the streets, burn vehicles, loot stores, destroy property, throw rocks and molatav cocktails are "Peaceful protestors"...

But the hundreds of thousands of Americans who peacefully assembled in Washington for the Tea Party rally - where there were zero arrests, zero property damage, and even zero littering - are considered by you to be "domestic terrorists" and "Tim McVeigh wannabe's".

So Tea Party people, take a lesson here... Next time you go to Washington, burn and loot the whole damn city to the ground... Just make sure you flash peace signs and scream about "Democracy!" anytime there is a camera around and the Left will stop calling you domestic terrorists and start calling you "peaceful protesters".

 

[pocketfullofshells]

Egyptians who riot in the streets, burn vehicles, loot stores, destroy property, throw rocks and molatav cocktails are "Peaceful protestors"...

But the hundreds of thousands of Americans who peacefully assembled in Washington for the Tea Party rally - where there were zero arrests, zero property damage, and even zero littering - are considered by you to be "domestic terrorists" and "Tim McVeigh wannabe's".

So Tea Party people, take a lesson here... Next time you go to Washington, burn and loot the whole damn city to the ground... Just make sure you flash peace signs and scream about "Democracy!" anytime there is a camera around and the Left will stop calling you domestic terrorists and start calling you "peaceful protesters".

first I have never said the tea party was domestic terrorist or mcVeigh wannabes. so your point is moot.

we have looting and property damage here in the US...because a sports team wins...They have had a 30 year oppressive government dictator...I think they have a right to be a little more pissed off and angry then them. Also just because there are protests...and looting...does not mean it was protesters looting...When the cops are gone...for any reason...there is a damn good chance of looting.

The Protesters where peacefully protesting...and where attacked by Mubaraks hired goons and police. the same ones also attacking the media. But its nice you ignore those who came in with the sole intent of violence...against the protesters who even had there own set up security to check people to make sure they where not armed. Notice how when the gunfire was going...it was the army to keep people back...and Pro Mubarak thugs firing into the protesters....


Its sad, for someone who is so gun ho about protecting your freedom...the even suggestion of your right to a 30 round clip for a gun could be questioned angers you....You have no problem backing the dictator and his thugs. I guess you believe in freedom and Democracy...so long as its only for you. Is it because you don't care about anyones lives or freedom if they don't happen to be lucky to be born at random in this nation? Or do you just feel Muslims should not be afforded such freedoms as...electing a leader...

And protesters destroying property...such savages....you know..like the Boston tea party....But thats ok they are to be attacked for any hint of violence...because America got its freedom from tyrants in a bloodless hippie sit in right?

Mubarak says he wishes to die in Egypt and will not flee...I hope he gets that wish soon after a nice trail for his corruption and violence against his people...I know you will be sad to see it happen..

 

[BigRob]

Mubarak's thug security people have gone in and attacked the Peaceful protesters...of course plain clothed..but have been ID's as Police ...Large scale automatic gunfire in the streets right now, the army is standing int he middle in there vehicals doing little ( at times providing cover)...

Mubarak already has now been accusing "foreign governments" of being behind the protest...aka he has pulled the Blame the west and US card...Its time we made a clear stand against him, and on the side of the people...one that the Egypt army will understand as well...They back Mubarak , they lose US funding ( very important to them)
.

There is no reason to get behind either party at the moment, and even less reason to halt all aid to Egypt over this. Mubarak might be the wrong choice ultimately, but we don't have to decide that yet.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

There is no reason to get behind either party at the moment, and even less reason to halt all aid to Egypt over this.

unless you really believe in freedom of speech and Democracy...then there is a clear side...thankfully Obama has made it clear now Mubarak must go now..And if the Army wishes to use our military aid to kill its own people to prevent that...the US taxpayer should not be funding them anymore.

If we can't stand up for democracy and freedom of speech against a tyrant ...we should forever stop pretending like we are beacon of hope or freedom for the world and just say what we are...a rich nation who only cares about ourself and does not care about human rights if it gets in the way of something we want...

 

[BigRob]

unless you really believe in freedom of speech and Democracy...then there is a clear side...thankfully Obama has made it clear now Mubarak must go now..And if the Army wishes to use our military aid to kill its own people to prevent that...the US taxpayer should not be funding them anymore.

President Obama said we needed a "meaningful transition", and has then been vague about what that actually means.

As for military aid to Egypt...you do realize that the military has not been used to attack protesters, and their biggest action came when they broke up a major fight between the pro and anti government demonstrators..

If we can't stand up for democracy and freedom of speech against a tyrant ...we should forever stop pretending like we are beacon of hope or freedom for the world and just say what we are...a rich nation who only cares about ourself and does not care about human rights if it gets in the way of something we want...

I will be the first to sit here and tell you that I don't care if the people of Egypt obtain Democracy or not. What I want to see is American interests advanced.

And I find it somewhat laughable when people sit here and attempt to argue that we need to stand up for Democracy and then ignore blatant human rights violations and dictator societies all around the world.

Let me ask you this.. if the entire Iraq war was predicated on "standing up for Democracy", would you have supported it? If not, then you are just as big a hypocrite..picking and choosing when and where you will offer your support for democratic changes.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

President Obama said we needed a "meaningful transition", and has then been vague about what that actually means.

As for military aid to Egypt...you do realize that the military has not been used to attack protesters, and their biggest action came when they broke up a major fight between the pro and anti government demonstrators..



I will be the first to sit here and tell you that I don't care if the people of Egypt obtain Democracy or not. What I want to see is American interests advanced.

And I find it somewhat laughable when people sit here and attempt to argue that we need to stand up for Democracy and then ignore blatant human rights violations and dictator societies all around the world.

Let me ask you this.. if the entire Iraq war was predicated on "standing up for Democracy", would you have supported it? If not, then you are just as big a hypocrite..picking and choosing when and where you will offer your support for democratic changes.

I supported both uprising by the people...we failed to even when we pushed for them. And there is a difference between supporting a full invasion of a nation...and saying we should not support there leaders and should support there people. We can't invade every nation on earth with bad leaders...but that does not mean we can't support the people when they try to overthrow them.

As for the army...they have not fired on the protesters...but they have rounded up media and detained them. Also I am not saying we should pull it right now...but we should make it very clear that we will if they fire on the protesters or if they aid Mubarak.

Obama has said orderly transition...and said Now, yesterday, right now...thats pretty clear. He may have said it threw the press Sec, but that is as good as him saying it. It has also been said to our contacts in Egypt that we expect it.

but at least you admit that you don't care about human rights or anything unless you live in the US...That is pretty sad to me. Its what we think is worth fighting and dieing for, those rights...but the rest of the world if it helps us..your willing to do what ever to them for it.

 

[BigRob]

I supported both uprising by the people...we failed to even when we pushed for them. And there is a difference between supporting a full invasion of a nation...and saying we should not support there leaders and should support there people. We can't invade every nation on earth with bad leaders...but that does not mean we can't support the people when they try to overthrow them.

In every country with a leader like Mubarak there is a faction in opposition.. often, we do not support them..What is the difference?

As for the army...they have not fired on the protesters...but they have rounded up media and detained them. Also I am not saying we should pull it right now...but we should make it very clear that we will if they fire on the protesters or if they aid Mubarak.

So you want to control the Egyptian Army and put their support behind the protesters?

As for the media, some have been attacked, and it is unclear if they have been taken in order to be protected.

Obama has said orderly transition...and said Now, yesterday, right now...thats pretty clear. He may have said it threw the press Sec, but that is as good as him saying it. It has also been said to our contacts in Egypt that we expect it.

Saying you want a meaningful transition "now" as opposed to "yesterday" is still irrelevant as to what that meaningful transition is.

but at least you admit that you don't care about human rights or anything unless you live in the US...

I did not say that.. I said I want to see American interests advanced.. in many cases advancing American interests goes right along with advancing human rights.

Even Secretary Clinton has stated there are more important things in international relationships than human rights.

That is pretty sad to me. Its what we think is worth fighting and dieing for, those rights...but the rest of the world if it helps us..your willing to do what ever to them for it.

Yes..I am willing to pursue American interests. (which by the way offer far greater hope and good than the alternative in most scenarios).

 

[pocketfullofshells]

In every country with a leader like Mubarak there is a faction in opposition.. often, we do not support them..What is the difference?



So you want to control the Egyptian Army and put their support behind the protesters?

As for the media, some have been attacked, and it is unclear if they have been taken in order to be protected.



Saying you want a meaningful transition "now" as opposed to "yesterday" is still irrelevant as to what that meaningful transition is.



I did not say that.. I said I want to see American interests advanced.. in many cases advancing American interests goes right along with advancing human rights.

Even Secretary Clinton has stated there are more important things in international relationships than human rights.



Yes..I am willing to pursue American interests. (which by the way offer far greater hope and good than the alternative in most scenarios).

yes I do want the army to both protect the protesters , and help make sure that the current government does not try to stop them by force.

The people of Egypt must decided how government changes, not us.
and you said Obama had not been clear, I showed he had.

And "I said I want to see American interests advanced.. in many cases advancing American interests goes right along with advancing human rights. "
well I am sorry if this time a whole nations right to not live under a dictator was not enough for your view of whats best for American interest. How bad does a government have to be before you say human rights may be important? with big protests set for Fri...how many would Mubarak have to kill before you said you know what maybe we should not side with him?

I believe the right to freedom of tyrants, free speech and a voice in your government is something we should all have....not just those who happen to be born in the US. when we have those freedoms on the backs of millions of others who are held down for our interest...we are nothing but hypocrites and shallow.

And who does the US following only our interests offer more hope for here? The People of Egypt will be better off if we support there dictator? Again you mean we will..

And how has supporting all there dictators done for our Security so far? so long as authoritative regimes are backed by the US in the middle east...groups like Al Qaeda will have a great recruiting base...when they have governments actually who have to listen to the people...they will have someplace besides the west to look at and take there anger out on besides the west. backing dictators has led to a middle east that is full of people who hate or at least distrust us greatly...Iran had a revolution to overthrow our backed dictator who did not listen to the people...maybe if we had not been so clearly viewed as the reason he was able to hold power...the Iran revolution does not end as Iran vs US...we Are in 2 major wars, and 2 limited ( Yemen and Pakistan) with most of the hijackers from one of our biggest allies ( and the 2nd in command of that group from the other Egypt)

so seems to me, backing Middle east Dictators..has not been that great for our Security.

 

[BigRob]

yes I do want the army to both protect the protesters , and help make sure that the current government does not try to stop them by force.

That is what they are doing... and you are calling for military aid to be stopped because of it...

The people of Egypt must decided how government changes, not us.
and you said Obama had not been clear, I showed he had.

Again, it is not clear to say we support a meaningful transition... what does that actually mean?

well I am sorry if this time a whole nations right to not live under a dictator was not enough for your view of whats best for American interest. How bad does a government have to be before you say human rights may be important? with big protests set for Fri...how many would Mubarak have to kill before you said you know what maybe we should not side with him?

Human rights are important.. they are just not the deciding factor. As for how bad a government has to be..all they have to do is pursue interests in contradiction to ours.

As long as Mubarak controls Egypt and pursues interests that benefit us, I am fine with him in power... if he cannot control Egypt (which might soon be the case) then it becomes a problem.

I believe the right to freedom of tyrants, free speech and a voice in your government is something we should all have....not just those who happen to be born in the US. when we have those freedoms on the backs of millions of others who are held down for our interest...we are nothing but hypocrites and shallow.

Then why are you not demanding action in North Korea, China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, etc?

And who does the US following only our interests offer more hope for here? The People of Egypt will be better off if we support there dictator? Again you mean we will..

Yes, I mean we will.

And how has supporting all there dictators done for our Security so far? so long as authoritative regimes are backed by the US in the middle east...groups like Al Qaeda will have a great recruiting base...when they have governments actually who have to listen to the people...they will have someplace besides the west to look at and take there anger out on besides the west. backing dictators has led to a middle east that is full of people who hate or at least distrust us greatly...Iran had a revolution to overthrow our backed dictator who did not listen to the people...maybe if we had not been so clearly viewed as the reason he was able to hold power...the Iran revolution does not end as Iran vs US...we Are in 2 major wars, and 2 limited ( Yemen and Pakistan) with most of the hijackers from one of our biggest allies ( and the 2nd in command of that group from the other Egypt)

So democracy will eliminate terrorism? That is quite a stretch.

 

[pocketfullofshells]

That is what they are doing... and you are calling for military aid to be stopped because of it...



Again, it is not clear to say we support a meaningful transition... what does that actually mean?



Human rights are important.. they are just not the deciding factor. As for how bad a government has to be..all they have to do is pursue interests in contradiction to ours.

As long as Mubarak controls Egypt and pursues interests that benefit us, I am fine with him in power... if he cannot control Egypt (which might soon be the case) then it becomes a problem.



Then why are you not demanding action in North Korea, China, Sudan, Saudi Arabia, etc?



Yes, I mean we will.



So democracy will eliminate terrorism? That is quite a stretch.

So if Hitler and the Germans actions had helped the US...you would be fine with supporting the Nazi's because human rights only matter if they get in way of our interest?

Why am I not supporting action in North Korea? hmmm you do know we have pretty much no power there to do anything right? If the US was sending Billions in miltary gear to make sure the North Korean leadership was able to hold down its people I would be pissed about it yes..But we are doing what we can short of invading North Korea to remove him from power...

Saudi Arabia...I guess you must have missed my years of bashing that repressive regime..And our Support of it for our Oil interests. If the people of Saudi Arabia rise up to take down there leaders in order to have more free speech and Democracy...I would be cheering them on as well and attacking our aid to there leaders. If they wanted to overthrow the government to put in place a harsh Religious rule that oppressed people and limited free speech and would be a authoritative rule like Iran...I would not..

Sudan just had a vote and divided there nation..aka a bit of democracy..I hope both sides can have free speech and elect there leaders...the US I don't recall offing major support for authoritative regimes there..So what do you expect me to be calling for the US to do? or Not do?

China? quick one for you...the Chinese government...or the people in Tienanmen square...who do you think I support? I think the US has been very poor in pushing for human rights in China, because it would rather have Cheap Blue Ray players...and its sad.

But I care more about what this nations ideals have been that made it great...Rights, Democracy, and freedom....those to me mean more then a line drawn on a map that says I was born here therefor I get them, but if was born outside them I should not get them.

 

[GenSeneca]

first I have never said the tea party was domestic terrorist or mcVeigh wannabes. so your point is moot.

You have called them "teabaggers" and said they are racist gun-toting nutjobs... You've pretty much called them anything but "peaceful" protesters.

The Protesters where peacefully protesting...

If your vision isn't so good, those are Egyptian protesters destroying a police car. Those are your "peaceful" protesters.

Just to recap, people throwing rocks and molotov cocktails, destroying property, burning cars, looting and rioting in the streets are "peaceful" protesters but the Tea Party is a racist group of dangerous gun wielding nut jobs.

Its sad, for someone who is so gun ho about protecting your freedom...You have no problem backing the dictator and his thugs.

Where have I EVER offered support for Mubarak? That's right, nowhere... but that doesn't stop you from repeating this strawman of a lie.

Mubarak says he wishes to die in Egypt and will not flee...I hope he gets that wish soon after a nice trail for his corruption and violence against his people...I know you will be sad to see it happen..

Just as you will be shouting "Allahu Akbar!" and "Death to Israel and America!" as Egypt transforms into a totalitarian Islamic state.

 

[BigRob]

So if Hitler and the Germans actions had helped the US...you would be fine with supporting the Nazi's because human rights only matter if they get in way of our interest?

You tell me.. we supported Stalin, who was just as large of a mass murder, when it suited our interests.

History is full of examples in which we have turned a blind eye towards Genocide because it did not suit our interests.

Sudan
Rwanda
East Timor
China
Iraq (in regards to the Kurds)
Sierra Leone
Uganda
Afghanistan (before we invaded)
Cambodia
North Korea
Ethiopia

You tell me, where was our "concern" for human rights when all of this occurred? Or did we just give lip service to human rights, and pursue our interests?

Why am I not supporting action in North Korea? hmmm you do know we have pretty much no power there to do anything right? If the US was sending Billions in miltary gear to make sure the North Korean leadership was able to hold down its people I would be pissed about it yes..But we are doing what we can short of invading North Korea to remove him from power...

Doing what we can to remove him from power huh? Is that why we send aid to North Korea?

Your assertion basically amounts to if a dictator is able to repress his people enough, it won't be our problem..

Saudi Arabia...I guess you must have missed my years of bashing that repressive regime..And our Support of it for our Oil interests. If the people of Saudi Arabia rise up to take down there leaders in order to have more free speech and Democracy...I would be cheering them on as well and attacking our aid to there leaders. If they wanted to overthrow the government to put in place a harsh Religious rule that oppressed people and limited free speech and would be a authoritative rule like Iran...I would not..

I guess your personal years of bashing Saudi Arabia are irrelevant in terms of how the US conducts foreign policy. It is no secret that both parties put American interests ahead of human rights.. as they should.

Sudan just had a vote and divided there nation..aka a bit of democracy..I hope both sides can have free speech and elect there leaders...the US I don't recall offing major support for authoritative regimes there..So what do you expect me to be calling for the US to do? or Not do?

I expect you to be standing up for human rights around the world... isn't that what this is all about? Surely you would be on board with stopping an ongoing genocide?

China? quick one for you...the Chinese government...or the people in Tienanmen square...who do you think I support? I think the US has been very poor in pushing for human rights in China, because it would rather have Cheap Blue Ray players...and its sad.

China is yet again another example of how the US continually puts its interests ahead of human rights. If you bought a cheap Chinese product, you have supported that stance.

But I care more about what this nations ideals have been that made it great...Rights, Democracy, and freedom....those to me mean more then a line drawn on a map that says I was born here therefor I get them, but if was born outside them I should not get them.

You don't "care" about them.. you pay them lip service when it is convenient.. same as myself. Now you might reply "what can you do about it personally?" So, I will ask you, what have you done personally to advance democracy and human rights around the world? Donated money/time? What?

 

[pocketfullofshells]

As for what has I done? I have worked with Amnesty International, I have given money and worked with groups to shut down the school of Americas that repressed Democracy in South America. I also was in contact with my local Senator mostly threw mail, but also once in person pushing to get more done to stop funding of the PRI of Mexico who was getting US money and arms and using to commit murder and violence against its people calling for Democracy in Mexico. A article I wrote on it was used to Jesuit teacher in New York, and also a school in Paraguay ( I asked that if anyone wished to use it, that they just let me know...they where just a few I recall who contacted me) so while it may seem small...getting info out about it helps...

And Stalin was hardly supported by the US....he happen to be fighting the same enemy...but as soon as that was over...( and before even) we locked on him as someone we needed to get rid of...

As for your other nations...How many of those did we arm? we can't stop evry butcher and bad leader on earth...but we don't have to arm them to the point of making them the one of the largest standing armys useing mostly our equipment and training.

I already said I don't believe that we should send in our forces all over the world...in some cases yes its very clear and we can do something and we should...but we can't always....that said we don't have back there leaders while they do it just because its helpful to us.
I hardly think the US is supporting North Korea...as we embargo its nation, have our troops on the border ready to go, and launch drills as a show of force against him. I don;t think the North Korean Leadership thinks of the US as friends in any way...Egypt yes very much so.

and I already have said I very much supported backing the kurds and shia uprising in Iraq...as we had already told them to do it and that we would back them ( before we changed our mind when it was to late and watched them get slaughtered) It was a key reason why I did not vote for Bush for a 2nd term ( hw not w) And in that case we had also played a role in arming Saddam in the first place and backed his repression...because it helped us out ( again that worked out really well for us) And after all how did Saddam get those WND he had back then? thats right we helped him

and you say you never said you back Mubarak...but sure sounds like you do...or do you just support a new Dictator that will do what we want and not what the people do?

And yes Egypt is Muslim, therefor of they don't have a dictator run by us, they will turn into a Death to Israel Death to America nation. Became all Muslim nations are alike, and all Muslims are the same. though odd, all most of the ones who hate Israel the most...are the least Democratic. When your the Dictator its a lot easier to aim the hate at Israel when your people are pissed then to have it aimed at you..Just blame the west...when you have a democracy and they have a voice and they have a vote...they can blame you for the problems. When there is real Free Speech you can have real debate and real dialog about Israel...Under State run media you can have all the made up conspiracy crap you want.

Also keep in mind when you ask about US policy overseas in other areas....don't forget...I hate US policy overseas in a lot of places...Under Bush Clinton Obama Regan Bush..Carter....