Christians loving their genocidal God is like Jews adoring Hitler, and just as foolish.

[cashmcall]

Well, as a general rule I don't believe everything I have read in the bible. The portrayal of God in it is something I really have a hard time swallowing especially in the old testament. This God condemns people, kills people floods the earth then stands around saying it was for the good of man kind. I don't buy it, no the God I know of is a loving and forgiving God who unlike man can forgive a person their faults if they as for forgiveness, and not pass judgment. This is the God I was taught about yet that God in the old Testament is nothing like this and there are times when I wonder is this really thee portrayal of God we want to bring forth. Maybe it has to do with the readings of the bible wanting to put fear into people , but for me these stories just kind of have me questioning the fact that if God is a loving and forgiving God, why is he doing these things. So, I tend to have a hard time with the old testament of the bible in general, mainly for the portrayal of God. I don't think that all that is in the bible is based on actual truth.

I wrote this a while back.. but it sums up how I feel..

Why don’t we just tell the truth..?

I’m tired of telling people how to be good people. When I do it, I feel like I’m preying on those Christians with low self-esteem who just want to do the right thing and are berated for inevitably failing. When I tell them how to do the right thing in the right way, I’m just preaching the law to those in need of grace, they need GRACE and I’m giving the LAW . Sometimes I feel like I’m just encouraging the lie that if people get their acts together, God might throw some acceptance their way.

In that scenario--at best--I'm a self-help guru, not a man of god. When we become exclusively obsessed with morality and getting better, we become self-proclaimed culture warriors and my words just becomes a post from which I throw out weekly gripes at the audience: Too much side-boob on television, a gay guy sold me my coffee, kids these days! Did you see what Jeff did, those guys were holding hands, Gays are killing the family.. No O THEIR NOT , DIVORCE IS.. Yada yada yada..

I heard that kind of thing a lot over the years from other Christians, and all it did was make me neurotic. I know now that kind of message isn't the only game in town, but some don't. And they still listen, maybe hoping for a scrap of truth among all the worthless words to get them through the week, but people mostly just wander away, shaking their heads.

I don't blame us. Religion can suck.







I left that space in-between the paragraph for my fellow Christians to lecture me. Tell me how I’m self-centered, negative and don’t understand what it means to be a real Christian, and that it’s not about me, it’s about Jesus. All that’s true, and I know it. But it doesn’t mean I’m wrong about this..

Some of you draw God in very straight lines when he’s made of the living water no container can hold.

Me, personally? I don’t need constant lectures, I need the wild, untamed love of Christ. I need the pastor to have the look of fear one has in their eyes when working with old ammunition that may well explode at any moment. I need brothers and sisters who aren’t afraid to dance from joy, even if it means missing a step or two. I need a family, not an accountability group.

Keep your shame and manipulation while you're at it.. Just give me Jesus.

So often, we’ve had the opportunity to see this amazing gift of God’s grace—Jesus—and we choose instead to share messages of judgment and fear. I’m tired of judging and being judged. I'm tired of telling people how I think they might get better in five easy steps. I just want to tell you the Truth—

AND JESUS SAID THAT WAS HIM…. No more no less... Thanks for reading..

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I wrote this a while back.. but it sums up how I feel..

Why don’t we just tell the truth..?

I’m tired of telling people how to be good people. When I do it, I feel like I’m preying on those Christians with low self-esteem who just want to do the right thing and are berated for inevitably failing. When I tell them how to do the right thing in the right way, I’m just preaching the law to those in need of grace, they need GRACE and I’m giving the LAW . Sometimes I feel like I’m just encouraging the lie that if people get their acts together, God might throw some acceptance their way.

In that scenario--at best--I'm a self-help guru, not a man of god. When we become exclusively obsessed with morality and getting better, we become self-proclaimed culture warriors and my words just becomes a post from which I throw out weekly gripes at the audience: Too much side-boob on television, a gay guy sold me my coffee, kids these days! Did you see what Jeff did, those guys were holding hands, Gays are killing the family.. No O THEIR NOT , DIVORCE IS.. Yada yada yada..

I heard that kind of thing a lot over the years from other Christians, and all it did was make me neurotic. I know now that kind of message isn't the only game in town, but some don't. And they still listen, maybe hoping for a scrap of truth among all the worthless words to get them through the week, but people mostly just wander away, shaking their heads.

I don't blame us. Religion can suck.







I left that space in-between the paragraph for my fellow Christians to lecture me. Tell me how I’m self-centered, negative and don’t understand what it means to be a real Christian, and that it’s not about me, it’s about Jesus. All that’s true, and I know it. But it doesn’t mean I’m wrong about this..

Some of you draw God in very straight lines when he’s made of the living water no container can hold.

Me, personally? I don’t need constant lectures, I need the wild, untamed love of Christ. I need the pastor to have the look of fear one has in their eyes when working with old ammunition that may well explode at any moment. I need brothers and sisters who aren’t afraid to dance from joy, even if it means missing a step or two. I need a family, not an accountability group.

Keep your shame and manipulation while you're at it.. Just give me Jesus.

So often, we’ve had the opportunity to see this amazing gift of God’s grace—Jesus—and we choose instead to share messages of judgment and fear. I’m tired of judging and being judged. I'm tired of telling people how I think they might get better in five easy steps. I just want to tell you the Truth—

AND JESUS SAID THAT WAS HIM…. No more no less... Thanks for reading..

Your reliance on Jesus is immoral. Care to debate it.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

 

[cashmcall]

Your reliance on Jesus is immoral. Care to debate it.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended? Because God punished Jesus -- his good child -- for the sins of his other children.

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Do you agree?

Regards
DL

I take it your talking about the prodigal son? If not , I'm a x marine and in boot camp punishing all for the acts of one worked very well..

Okay, . Here's a test. Which brother should receive the greatest reward in Heaven?

1)The younger brother, who left his father never wanting to see him again, but later returned.

2)The older brother, who had stayed with his father the entire time.

3)Neither. They should both receive the same reward.

And the answer is...

↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓

1)The younger brother who left his father never wanting to see him again, but later returned.
Remember his way's are not our way's..

God judges the heart and forgives all sin for those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, the older son was bitter and judgmental. In fact, we can't be sure if he was even a true believer. Here is the basis for my answer:

And He “Jesus” also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.. for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.( Luke 18:9-14)

Many non-Christians say that God is not fair. Someone who lives a good life, but rejects Jesus will be resigned to spend eternity in Hell, whereas someone who commits evil deeds, but accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior immediately before execution for murder will go to Heaven.It is true that God is not fair.If God were fair, both sons would go to Hell. Even the good person has committed hundreds of sins against God over his lifetime. Those who call for fairness will get the fairness of God's justice. As for me, I prefer God's mercy over God's justice.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I take it your talking about the prodigal son? If not , I'm a x marine and in boot camp punishing all for the acts of one worked very well..

Okay, . Here's a test. Which brother should receive the greatest reward in Heaven?

1)The younger brother, who left his father never wanting to see him again, but later returned.

2)The older brother, who had stayed with his father the entire time.

3)Neither. They should both receive the same reward.

And the answer is...

↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓↓

1)The younger brother who left his father never wanting to see him again, but later returned.
Remember his way's are not our way's..

God judges the heart and forgives all sin for those who accept Jesus as Lord and Savior. However, the older son was bitter and judgmental. In fact, we can't be sure if he was even a true believer. Here is the basis for my answer:

And He “Jesus” also told this parable to certain ones who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: "Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get. But the tax-gatherer, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, God, be merciful to me, the sinner! I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other.. for everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted.( Luke 18:9-14)

Many non-Christians say that God is not fair. Someone who lives a good life, but rejects Jesus will be resigned to spend eternity in Hell, whereas someone who commits evil deeds, but accepts Jesus as Lord and Savior immediately before execution for murder will go to Heaven.It is true that God is not fair.If God were fair, both sons would go to Hell. Even the good person has committed hundreds of sins against God over his lifetime. Those who call for fairness will get the fairness of God's justice. As for me, I prefer God's mercy over God's justice.

How completely dishonest. You must be a Christian.

You are so busy deflecting that you lose this one buddy.

Thanks for your time and showing the lurkers how deflection to try to save an argument is done.

You have learned that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

Regards
DL

 

[Jason76]

The definition of good as defined by God isn't the same as for the world. People who are basically good according to agnostics and atheists are not child molesters, murders etc. On the other hand, Christians use the Bible as the standard for righteousness. Those who have Christ covering for thier "breaking of Biblical laws" are truly righteous.

In a sense, this idea makes a lot of intellegent sense. The idea of good and bad is very relative to the average non-believer. In such a case, how can we really know what is good or bad? For instance, a lot of the people who supported Hitler were basically "good people", but because of their relative sense of right and wrong, they were duped into following the German war machine.

 

[Centrehalf]

In a sense, this idea makes a lot of intellegent sense. The idea of good and bad is very relative to the average non-believer. In such a case, how can we really know what is good or bad? For instance, a lot of the people who supported Hitler were basically "good people", but because of their relative sense of right and wrong, they were duped into following the German war machine.

Relative sense of right and wrong? There were a lot of Christians in Germany at that time, pretty close to all of them were either Protestant or Catholic.

 

[Jason76]

Relative sense of right and wrong? There were a lot of Christians in Germany at that time, pretty close to all of them were either Protestant or Catholic.

Just because you claim to follow Christ, doesn't mean you really follow him. Labels are cheap. Anyone can claim to be anything, but a true label is decided based on how someone behaves.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

In a sense, this idea makes a lot of intellegent sense. The idea of good and bad is very relative to the average non-believer. .

Quite the weird statement.

Secular law is well ahead of biblical law so I would say that their view of good and evil is better tuned than the Christian law and better at recognizing good and evil.

Many Christians say that torturing a baby for 6 days before finally killing it like God did with King David's baby is somehow justified.

Do you?

Regards
DL

 

[Centrehalf]

Just because you claim to follow Christ, doesn't mean you really follow him. Labels are cheap. Anyone can claim to be anything, but a true label is decided based on how someone behaves.

I would buy this if you were talking about a small group but there were 60 million Christians in Germany at that time. I think that is too large a group to dismiss.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

I would buy this if you were talking about a small group but there were 60 million Christians in Germany at that time. I think that is too large a group to dismiss.

Especially when the Vatican is Hitler's bank and money launderer.

Regards
DL

 

[Jason76]

I would buy this if you were talking about a small group but there were 60 million Christians in Germany at that time. I think that is too large a group to dismiss.

So what? Any group of people who would sanction the racism that Germany put out are dogs. The German people knew what they were getting into, and it didn't bother them, despite the fact it conflicted with basic Christian teachings. The only thing they got mildly upset about was the program of disability elimination. However, they didn't show this same sadness for the Jewish population. Were they so stupid that they really thought all that hate wouldn't have lead to genocide?

 

[Centrehalf]

So what? Any group of people who would sanction the racism that Germany put out are dogs. The German people knew what they were getting into, and it didn't bother them, despite the fact it conflicted with basic Christian teachings. The only thing they got mildly upset about was the program of disability elimination. However, they didn't show this same sadness for the Jewish population. Were they so stupid that they really thought all that hate wouldn't have lead to genocide?

At that point in time Germany wasn't the only country with 2nd class citizens. I'll leave detailed discussion of the Third Reich for another day and another thread.

I think the point the OP was making is that propaganda and indoctrination can be very dangerous because they can make large groups of people do or think whatever you want them to and that Christianity practices this sort of propaganda and indoctrination. When you dismiss 60 million people as being non-believers instead of asking yourself if their belief system might be flawed then you're scapegoating. This is assuming you believe they had an obligation to act in the first place which I'm not so sure about but the OP seems to so that's what we're going with here.

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

At that point in time Germany wasn't the only country with 2nd class citizens. I'll leave detailed discussion of the Third Reich for another day and another thread.

I think the point the OP was making is that propaganda and indoctrination can be very dangerous because they can make large groups of people do or think whatever you want them to and that Christianity practices this sort of propaganda and indoctrination. When you dismiss 60 million people as being non-believers instead of asking yourself if their belief system might be flawed then you're scapegoating. This is assuming you believe they had an obligation to act in the first place which I'm not so sure about but the OP seems to so that's what we're going with here.

I am thinking of Ghandi's words of liking Christ but that Christians were nothing like their Christ.

My bottom line to the O.P. is that Christians are traitors to humanity if they adore a God who used genocide against us. That God cannot be a moral God.

A moral God would cure the afflicted. He would not kill. Taking the moral low ground when nothing prevented God from taking the moral high ground shows that he is not a worthy God.

That is why we Gnostic Christians call Yahweh a vile demiurge while always remembering that this is all a myth under discussion.

Regards
DL

 

[Centrehalf]

That is why we Gnostic Christians call Yahweh a vile demiurge while always remembering that this is all a myth under discussion.

It appears I was way off on your intent.

I see a contradiction here. You see this as a myth but I think you have to use a literal interpretation in order to make the accusations you're making.

Is it only the literalists you have a problem with?

 

[Gnostic Christian Bishop]

It appears I was way off on your intent.

I see a contradiction here. You see this as a myth but I think you have to use a literal interpretation in order to make the accusations you're making.

Is it only the literalists you have a problem with?

Generally speaking, yes.

They are idol worshipers and even the bible, through one of the archetypal Jesus' warn against such thinking.

Seeking God is to be a perpetual thing and even those like me who claim apotheosis should set aside the God we find within, reset our bar of excellence, and seek anew.

Idol worship based on faith is for fools.

Faith closes the mind. It is pure idol worship.

Faith is a way to quit using, "God given" power of Reason and Logic, and cause the faithful to embrace doctrines that moral people reject.

The God of the OT says, “Come now, and let us reason together,” [Isaiah 1:18]

How can literalists reason with God when they must ignore reason and logic and discard them when turning into literalist?

Those who are literalists can only reply somewhat in the fashion that Martin Luther did.

“Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding.”
“Reason is a whore, the greatest enemy that faith has.”

This attitude effectively kills all worthy communication that non-theists can have with theist. Faith closes the mind as it is pure idol worship.

Literalism is an evil practice that hides the true messages of myths. We cannot show our faith based friends that they are wrong through their faith colored glasses. Their faith also plugs their ears.

Regards
DL