Another theory that must be rejected by conservatives

PLC1

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It is already well known that the theory of evolution is a liberal plot to destroy religion, and of course, global warming theory is yet another plot by liberals to take over the world and enslave us all, but there is one more theory that must be rejected in order to preserve one's conservative credentials.



The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1]

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So be aware. There may even be more scientific theories that could jeopardize your conservative card, should you believe in them.
 
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It is already well known that the theory of evolution is a liberal plot to destroy religion, and of course, global warming theory is yet another plot by liberals to take over the world and enslave us all, but there is one more theory that must be rejected in order to preserve one's conservative credentials.





link1

link2

So be aware. There may even be more scientific theories that could jeopardize your conservative card, should you believe in them.

I just love the way you have conflated relativity with relativism, subjects which have nothing to do with one another. Jeez, get a grip.
 
It is already well known that the theory of evolution is a liberal plot to destroy religion, and of course, global warming theory is yet another plot by liberals to take over the world and enslave us all, but there is one more theory that must be rejected in order to preserve one's conservative credentials.

I thought you were supposed to know the difference between opinion and fact?

I read the Conservapedia "article" about the subject and their point seems to be quite clear... and accurate. The theory of relativity is just a theory, unable to proven and with several flaws, therefore acceptance of the theory becomes an article of faith.

Note too that the Theory of Evolution and the MMGW Theory - are also just flawed theories, not scientifically proven facts, therefore acceptance of such theories is also an article of faith on the part of the believer.

Why does this matter? Because those who are bashing "Conservatives" as people who reject science and embrace faith are doing just that when they accept unproven scientific theories (opinions) as scientific fact.

The "article" cited several scientific laws, anomalies, and paradox's that seem to contradict the GTR but all of those were ignored because Jesus and the bible were mentioned. Obviously the haters can't acknowledge the valid scientific points that were offered because that would require far more brain power than attacking the Bible as a fairytale and simply characterizing those who read it as knuckle dragging ingrates who hate science.
 
I thought you were supposed to know the difference between opinion and fact?

I read the Conservapedia "article" about the subject and their point seems to be quite clear... and accurate. The theory of relativity is just a theory, unable to proven and with several flaws, therefore acceptance of the theory becomes an article of faith.

Note too that the Theory of Evolution and the MMGW Theory - are also just flawed theories, not scientifically proven facts, therefore acceptance of such theories is also an article of faith on the part of the believer.

Why does this matter? Because those who are bashing "Conservatives" as people who reject science and embrace faith are doing just that when they accept unproven scientific theories (opinions) as scientific fact.

The "article" cited several scientific laws, anomalies, and paradox's that seem to contradict the GTR but all of those were ignored because Jesus and the bible were mentioned. Obviously the haters can't acknowledge the valid scientific points that were offered because that would require far more brain power than attacking the Bible as a fairytale and simply characterizing those who read it as knuckle dragging ingrates who hate science.

The "just a theory" mantra is usually recited by people who have no concept of what a scientific theory is or about the scientific method. Scientific theories are not the same as the term "theories" as used in the layman's world. Scientific theories are only accepted by the scientific community once there has been sufficient time for volumous unambiguous evidence to be compiled in its support. Such evidence includes experimental and observational data conducted and compiled by a myrid of scientists and technicians from many disciplines over a substantial amount of time. It took nearly 50 years for the theory of evolution to attain general acceptance within the scientific community. It took even longer for the theory of relativity to gain general acceptance.

And make no mistake, both of these theories are widely accepted by the world's scientific community. And unlike such gastronomically disturbing theories as creationism and ID, real scientific theories are built around verifiable facts, not the other way around. Evolution is a fact. The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution. Relativity is a demonstrable fact. It is unambiguously true. The theory of relativity explains the fact of relativity. Similarly, flight is a fact, The theory of flight explains the fact of flight.

Are these theories perfect or otherwise without flaw? Of course not. Otherwise they would be considered to be scientific laws. Like it or no, that's the way the scientific method works. It's always a work in progress. It can be no other way.

Now, if you would care to offer alternative theories that better explain the mountains of data these theories rather eloquently explain, I'm all ears, truly.
 
Are these theories perfect or otherwise without flaw? Of course not. Otherwise they would be considered to be scientific laws.
Based on what I've quoted you as saying, it appears you agree with me... So I'm not sure why you would want to sound like we are in disagreement.

The fact that GTR is "widely accepted" does not, in any way, bring it closer to being a scientific fact. It is no different than the existence of God. While it is "widely accepted" that God exists, that does not bring the "theory" any closer to being a scientific fact.

Other than that, you seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make... Every time "Conservatives" and science are mentioned in the same sentence, people attack "Conservatives" as Bible-thumping-knuckle-draggers who reject all things scientific and in this instance, that's clearly not the case. These individuals did cite specific scientific laws that are incompatible with the GTR but all the scientifically sound arguments they made were overshadowed by their scientifically unsound citations of the Bible, Jesus and God as being "proof" of the point they were making.

BTW, Welcome to the HOP and in case you didn't already know, I'm an Atheist.
 
Based on what I've quoted you as saying, it appears you agree with me... So I'm not sure why you would want to sound like we are in disagreement.

The fact that GTR is "widely accepted" does not, in any way, bring it closer to being a scientific fact. It is no different than the existence of God. While it is "widely accepted" that God exists, that does not bring the "theory" any closer to being a scientific fact.

Other than that, you seem to have completely missed the point I was trying to make... Every time "Conservatives" and science are mentioned in the same sentence, people attack "Conservatives" as Bible-thumping-knuckle-draggers who reject all things scientific and in this instance, that's clearly not the case. These individuals did cite specific scientific laws that are incompatible with the GTR but all the scientifically sound arguments they made were overshadowed by their scientifically unsound citations of the Bible, Jesus and God as being "proof" of the point they were making.

BTW, Welcome to the HOP and in case you didn't already know, I'm an Atheist.

I don't disagree that most scientific theories are incomplete. That doesn't mean that they are wrong. If they were wrong, then there wouldn't be a preponderance of the world's scientific community wholehearedly supporting them. Take radiometric age determination for instance. Creationists are arguing high and low that radioisotopic dating is flawed and that therefore, the world cannot be as old as we claim. The problem with their areguments is that they aren't flawed at all. The science is very well understood (the fact that it comes straight out of our work in the field of atomic power escapes them, for some reason). Now, do you really believe that the thousands of laboratories around the world who conduct radioisotopic dating every day would be wasting their time with these methods if they didn't work? Yeah, I don't either.

Oh, and for the record, unlike the existence of God, we have plenty of empirical evidence to support all of the above theories. So no, it's not like the existence of god. Not by a long shot.

Personal revelation is, by definition, first person. As such, no one is under any obligation to believe one person's personal revelation over that of another. A farmer in Kansas may be an upstanding, honest, god-fearing man, but we still need hard evidence that a UFO landed in his corn field.

In contrast, it is difficult to ignore the fact of gravity when anyone can readily demonstrate its existence by dropping a soild red ball and allowing it to naturally fall to the ground. Explaining what gravity is, howerver, is another matter entirely, since we still, after all these centuries, don't know what it is, though we have clues, and are making progress every day.

It all boils down to burden of proof. Who has to prove what to whom? The person making the extraordinary claim has the burden of proving to the experts and to the community at large that his or her belief has more validity than the one almost everyone else accepts. You have to lobby for your opinion to be heard. Then you have to marshal experts on your side so you can convince the majority to support your claim over the one they have always supported. Finally, when you are in the majority, the burden of proof switches to the outsider who wants to challenge you with his or her unusual claim. Evolutionionary scientists had the burden of proof for half a century after Darwin, but now the burden of proof is on creationists. It is up to creationists to show why the theory of evolution is wrong and why creationism is right, and it is not up to the evolutionists to defend evolution. The burden of proof is on the Holocaust deniers to prove the Holocaust did not happen, not on Holocaust historians to prove that it did. The rationale for this is that mountains of evidence prove that both evolution and the Holocaust are facts. In other words, it is not enough to have the evidence. You must convince others of the validity of your evidence. And when you are an outsider this is the price you pay, regardless of whether you are right or wrong.

And it is not enough to prove that a theory is wrong. You have to provide an alternative that better explains the phenomenon in question than the previous theory does. That's how the scientific method works. In addition, most theories don't replace previous ones, but rather abridges them. Einstein didn't replace Newton's work. He built upon it's foundation and greatly enhanced it's predictive powers.

Darwin wasn't the first to conceive of something like the theory of evolution. Others were working on it as well. What Darwin did was synthesize all of what was then known into one working hypothesis, which he then used to test it with the feild data that he and others had collected. When that data verified his hypothesis, he then formulated a formal theory of biological evolution, most of which has been shown to be accurate and relevant today.
 
I don't disagree that most scientific theories are incomplete.
Then why all the attitude? I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the actual "article" in question. It didn't appear to me they were calling for the GTR to be abandonded but rather more openly questioned.

They made a point which I think is valid, that the "wide acceptance" of GTR as fact, rather than theory, could retard progress in that field of science. Just look at the knee jerk reaction the suggestion of GTR's fallability has solicited from you. Attacking anyone who points out the fallability of the GTR theory is no way to go about finding a new, and better, theory.

That doesn't mean that they are wrong.[/B]
I'm not claiming GTR is wrong, I think it is the best explanation out there so far, but the reality remains that it has not been proven to be a fact (true). To ignore it's contradictions with known scientific laws is illogical.

If they were wrong, then there wouldn't be a preponderance of the world's scientific community wholehearedly supporting them.
Here you are saying that because many people believe it to be correct, that it is more likely to be correct. That is illogical.

Oh, and for the record, unlike the existence of God, we have plenty of empirical evidence to support all of the above theories. So no, it's not like the existence of god. Not by a long shot.
If you want to argue that something is more likely to be correct because a great number of people believe it to be so, then the God analogy is very apropos.

And it is not enough to prove that a theory is wrong. You have to provide an alternative that better explains the phenomenon in question than the previous theory does. That's how the scientific method works.
That's nonsense. Only if you wanted to replace the current theory with your another would you have to both disprove the first and prove the second.
 
Then why all the attitude? I'm guessing you didn't bother to read the actual "article" in question. It didn't appear to me they were calling for the GTR to be abandonded but rather more openly questioned.

They made a point which I think is valid, that the "wide acceptance" of GTR as fact, rather than theory, could retard progress in that field of science. Just look at the knee jerk reaction the suggestion of GTR's fallability has solicited from you. Attacking anyone who points out the fallability of the GTR theory is no way to go about finding a new, and better, theory.

In fact, I read this article and others about this very issue before I saw it on this forum. In fact, the person who initiated this whole thing made a point of arguing from the very same ignorance of Albert Einstein and his works that others, particularly in the creationist movement, have made. There is nothing wrong at all with questioning scientific theories. But there has to be a sound scientific basis for such questioning, not a political or religious one. And with that in mind, the fact is that there are physicists today who are calloing parts of GTR into question, but not because they think it is wrong, but that like Newton's theories before it, it doesn't tell the whole story. This is to be expected, as I pointed out earlier.

The other issue I have is with the one(s) from these articles who are questioning the theory itself. They are neither scientists respected in the field of cosmology or physics, nor apparently, well versed in the scientific method. So the question arises, what qualifications do they have to make the claims they are making? And with what hard data are they making these claims?

I'm not claiming GTR is wrong, I think it is the best explanation out there so far, but the reality remains that it has not been proven to be a fact (true). To ignore it's contradictions with known scientific laws is illogical.

No, the original poster made these claims:

"It is already well known that the theory of evolution is a liberal plot to destroy religion, and of course, global warming theory is yet another plot by liberals to take over the world and enslave us all, but there is one more theory that must be rejected in order to preserve one's conservative credentials."

"The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1]"

Neither of which is correct. And as I pointed out in my first post, they conflate relativity with relativism. One has nothing to do with the other. And the first claim precludes the notion that there are conservatives or religious folk who are working in the field of evolutionary biology. Certainly there are, and I have encountered them in my own work as a geologist. And so when you ask me why people automatically assume that it is conservatives who are attacking science it is by and large because you don't see liberals doing it. How many liberal creationists are you aware of? The OP's orignal quote above shows clearly that they believe that "liberals" are using evolution to attack religion. He doesn't say that conservatives are doing it. He blames liberals. The fact is that the theory of evolution says nothing about religion, and in fact many religious people understand and accept the theory. My first positive exposure to it was in science class in a Catholic school.

Here you are saying that because many people believe it to be correct, that it is more likely to be correct. That is illogical.

Scientists are highly trained technicians. I'm a geologist, for instance, and have had many years of education in physics, chemistry, biology, earth science, and other fields. So is a person off the street more qualified then I am to say that ewvolution is or is not a fact? Is a preacher who admittedly has very little science education qualified to tell people that evolution is not real?

Re-read my essay above about burden of proof. It is relevant to your question.

If you want to argue that something is more likely to be correct because a great number of people believe it to be so, then the God analogy is very apropos.

The difference is that scientists propose theories based on empirical data that is refutable, repeatable, and makes predictions that can be tested and quanitified. If you can figure out how to test "God did it", let us all know.

That's nonsense. Only if you wanted to replace the current theory with your another would you have to both disprove the first and prove the second

But replacing the theory of evolution is exactly what creationists seek to do. The problem is that they have nothing that better explains the facts than the theory of evolution. In the scientific world, replacing theories is VERY rare. Most commonly, they are elaborated on, as the GTR elaborated on Newton's work.
 
There is nothing wrong at all with questioning scientific theories. But there has to be a sound scientific basis for such questioning, not a political or religious one.
As I have said, I think it is foolish of "Conservatives" to cite religious sources as "proof" of anything outside of their own faith.

And so when you ask me why people automatically assume that it is conservatives who are attacking science it is by and large because you don't see liberals doing it.
I have asked no such thing. I have merely pointed out that if a "Conservative" makes any criticism of science people automatically assume they are "attacking" science, as you just have. Thanks for once again proving my point.

The OP's orignal quote above shows clearly that they believe that "liberals" are using evolution to attack religion.
PLC was parroting a "journalist" who was making fun of "Conservatives" with his post... It's a propaganda technique known as "Name Calling" which was executed with an "Appeal to Ridicule" fallacy.

Just because Group X claims that Group Y believes Z doesn't make it so... And when X and Y are competitors, Z is probably false or misleading.

PLC failed to offer any evidence to back his assertion that "Conservatives" had to reject GTR in order to retain their "credentials". Both he and the "journalist" purposefully left out what the "Conservatives" were referencing in relation to a "Liberal plot" regarding GTR to create the Appeal to Ridicule:

"The Roe v. Wade opinion ignored the way in which laws regulating pregnant women may shape the entire pattern of relationships among men, women, and children. It conceptualized abortion not in terms of the intensely public question of the subordination of women to men through the exploitation of pregnancy, but in terms of the purportedly private question of how women might make intimately personal decisions about their bodies and their lives. That vision described a part of the truth, but only what might be called the Newtonian part. ... [A] change in the surrounding legal setting can constitute state action that most threatens the sphere of personal choice. And it is a 'curved space' perspective on how law operates that leads one to focus less on the visible lines of legal force and more on how those lines are bent and directed by the law's geometry." Laurence H. Tribe, The Curvature of Constitutional Space: What Lawyers Can Learn from Modern Physics, 103 Harv. L. Rev. 1, 16-17 (1989).

Not including the actual above quote but only offering the out of context footnote making reference to this quote made the quote below sound ridiculous...

The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1]

The propaganda technique was successful. The proof of that can be found in you stating the following:

I just love the way you have conflated relativity with relativism, subjects which have nothing to do with one another.

And so you were left with the impression that it was the "Conservatives" who were "conflating" the two subjects without justification...

Dr. Goebbels would be proud.

Is a preacher who admittedly has very little science education qualified to tell people that evolution is not real?
You have already admitted that there are scientists who acknowledge the shortcomings of GTR... Should that preclude non-scientists from pointing out the same thing?

The difference is that scientists propose theories based on empirical data that is refutable, repeatable, and makes predictions that can be tested and quanitified.
Your claim was: "More people believe X to be true than to be false, therefore X is most likely true." That is a logical fallacy. Whether you replace X with God or GTR does not matter, the statement is a logical fallacy.

But replacing the theory of evolution is exactly what creationists seek to do.
I was speaking to their criticism of GTR, the topic at hand, not their interest in replacing evolution with creationism.

Dealing specifically with the linked section of the "article", the "Conservatives" were pointing out that GTR has flaws (which by itself should not be a controversial statement). Offering such criticism of GTR does not require them to offer a substitute theory of their own (although I'm sure they have one).
 
No, the original poster made these claims:

"It is already well known that the theory of evolution is a liberal plot to destroy religion, and of course, global warming theory is yet another plot by liberals to take over the world and enslave us all, but there is one more theory that must be rejected in order to preserve one's conservative credentials."

"The theory of relativity is a mathematical system that allows no exceptions. It is heavily promoted by liberals who like its encouragement of relativism and its tendency to mislead people in how they view the world.[1]"

The OP exudes sarcasm, of course, and needs to be read with that in mind. The last thing I want to do is question the theory of evolution, of global climate change, or of relativity. The point was that it is the self described "conservatives" who tend to question the first two, so, given the Conservapedia article, the must have to question the other as well.

It was meant not as a jab at scientific theories, but at people who seem to think that they have to believe a certain way in order to keep their "conservative" credentials.

Nor was it meant to be taken literally.
 
The OP exudes sarcasm, of course, and needs to be read with that in mind. The last thing I want to do is question the theory of evolution, of global climate change, or of relativity. The point was that it is the self described "conservatives" who tend to question the first two, so, given the Conservapedia article, the must have to question the other as well.

It was meant not as a jab at scientific theories, but at people who seem to think that they have to believe a certain way in order to keep their "conservative" credentials.

Nor was it meant to be taken literally.

I see your point, though the fact is that this has been a recurring issue with these people, and though you may not have meant is in a serious vain, they do take it seriously, and I tend to take their ridiculous claims at their face value because of their oft-stated intentions with regard disrupting science education and more It's a form of bigotry, and frankly, this country is far enough behind in the learning curve where science is concerned to tolerate this kind of blatant, willful ignorance. It hurts us in countless ways as a nation, not the least of which is its divisiveness.
 
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I see your point, though the fact is that this has been a recurring issue with these people, and though you may not have meant is in a serious vain, they do take it seriously, and I tend to take their ridiculous claims at their face value because of their oft-stated intentions with regard disrupting science education and more It's a form of bigotry, and frankly, this country is far enough behind in the learning curve where science is concerned to tolerate this kind of blatant, willful ignorance. It hurts us in countless ways as a nation, not the least of which is its divisiveness.

You can not counter irrationality with empirical evidence. Maybe you can't do it with humor, sarcasm, irony, and ridicule, either, but it is a lot more fun to try.
 
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