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And, If You Do It Again, We're Going To Hold Our Breath Until We Turn Blue !!!

Discussion in 'World Politics' started by GBFan, Jul 29, 2014.

  1. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    The best most possible outcome is that the pace of things slows sufficiently to where BO is retired. But I dont see that happening as its more a countdown clock for those looking to expand their influence.
     
  2. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    So, you think the next president will be so much better?

    Who do you visualize that person being, and what will he/she do differently?

    Looking back, I can see at least 16 years of the same old thing.
     
  3. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Better ? Who knows but different is likely one way or another. Foreign policy will be a factor in 2016 positivly or negatively.
    If you see no difference look harder.
     
  4. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I keep looking and looking, but this is what I see:

    [​IMG]
     
  5. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Did Vlad invading countries with bush ?
    Did PRC get this aggresive in south china sea ?
    There is far more to it than continuing a few programs with iraq & afghanistan.
     
  6. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    It would be a real stretch to think that "Vlad" and the PRC were afraid to engage in military adventures for fear that Bush would declare war on their countries.

    Anyway, Bush was too busy invading nations himself to worry about what Russia might have been doing.
     
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  7. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Not suggesting they were afraid rather that they were deterred from as aggresive behaviors as they are not detetred now.
    I see that as a difference particularly so with Bush's other concerns.
     
  8. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm still not seeing what either Obama or Bush did to deter them.
     
  9. GBFan

    GBFan Well-Known Member

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    I remember ... when I was in the service, I was in charge of a group of people, and I was having trouble getting things done, much less done right. Finally, an old NCO pulled me aside and told me this: "The military has given you a big stick (court martial, etc.), but if your troops know you'll never swing it, you have no stick at all, just a piece of wood." I used it once, and all the disciplinary problems went away. Funny how that worked ...

    Whether we like to admit it or not, we ARE the big dog ... we have the military power, the fiscal power, and the political power to impose our will on any situation, large or small. So, the question isn't "CAN we makes thing different?", the question is "Do we WANT to make things different?"

    CAN we make a difference in the Ukraine? Sure - sign a mutual defense agreement with Ukraine, put a missile defense system in Poland, escalate the readiness of our troops in Germany - all signs that we are willing to 'swing the big stick'. Couple that with real, and substantive, economic sanctions, let it be known that we have updated our war plans to include Russia's oil refineries (obviously, they are already on the list), and the whole problem goes away.

    CAN we make a difference in the Gaza strip? Sure - discontinue our aid to the Hamas-controlled government, take real and substantive action to provide assistance to the Palestinian people (with a clear understanding that it will stop if Hamas is not evicted), take a clear and consistent position of providing real military support (weapons, etc.) to Israel, pressure those Arab countries sitting on the sidelines to force Iran to stop support of Hamas/Hezbollah. In this case, our 'big stick' isn't military - it's economic. Use it or lose it.

    CAN we impact the Middle East? Sure - but that's a military solution. Simply - take control of the region - conquer Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, and Afghanistan. Put forth the resources necessary to do the job. Establish governments in each country - allow them to define their own future, but monitor and influence, as necessary. The only problem is - war is a dirty business. People die - innocent people die.

    So, let's not talk about what we CAN do ... let's talk about what we WANT to do.

    Some among us, myself included, believe we have a higher responsibility than to cater to our own self interests. We have a responsibility to help others to realize the dream of freedom, to reach the pinnacle of self determination that we have scaled. Our history is replete with examples of our assistance to others, not for the purpose of self aggrandizement or gain, but rather, in search of the belief that all men those oft-quoted inalienable rights, and that we, as the recipients of those rights, have a responsibility to help others to secure them.

    Others, primarily our liberal left, believe that we have no business meddling in others affairs - that, if they want freedom, they have to earn it all by themselves. They do not believe that we have this responsibility to aid those who seek self determination.

    Our government has forgotten our larger purpose, and now, only concern themselves with themselves. They no longer care what is 'right', but merely what will perpetuate their power. Their only interest is their own self interest.

    The only question is ... how long are we going to let them get away with it?
     
  10. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    and we haven't seen any of that sort of thing for quite a long while now, which was my point: The past two presidents look very much alike. Congress, meanwhile, is totally dysfunctional, tied up as it is into warring camps and mostly worried about promoting their party.

    Will anything change after the next election, or the one after that? Maybe, but don't bet on it.
     
  11. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Obama did not deter them, Bush did. Clearly they are not identical or the outcomes would be aggressivness years earlier.
    If you eant a hint compare our capability/inventory of pentagon assets when Bush left for Texas and today. Thsts but one thing.
     
  12. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    I'm not so sure our military spending has much to do with it. There was a steep increase right after the attacks of 9/11, followed by a slight decrease on the withdrawal from Iraq.

    It seems more likely to me that Putin choose to invade Crimea and Ukrane on his own schedule, probably due to events in those places.

    [​IMG]
     
  13. dogtowner

    dogtowner Moderator Staff Member

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    Spending does not equal capability. Bore boats or less, more guys or less, more hardware or less ?
    Vlad created those events.
     
  14. GBFan

    GBFan Well-Known Member

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    Picking a convenient 18 month period out of 25 years of history hardly seems to be a valid analysis ...
     
  15. PLC1

    PLC1 Moderator Staff Member

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    If we have less boats, less guys and less hardware for more money, then the taxpayers need to be asking why.

    Vlad? You mean Putin? I'm not so sure he created the events so much as took advantage of them. Crimea was mostly Russian to start with, and so was a lot of the Ukrane.

    I'm also not sure the US could have done much to stop him other than what was done without risking all out war with Russia.

    But you do have a point that Putin doesn't believe that the US would risk war, and he's probably right.
     
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